Author Topic: What's the best archer build?  (Read 7488 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2011, 09:12:33 PM »
im surprised no one has said the artificer yet :twitch
I was gonna. They're great when you grab some +1 spell storing aurorum dye arrows. Buffs out the wazoo, each as an attack action? That, and UMD'd debuffs.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2011, 12:18:13 AM »
3rd level when we both get a feat and a BaB, I get 2nd level spells. Again, my Knowledge Devotion checks are getting better.  I'd say CC takes this level.

How are you getting a point of BAB at third level as a Cloistered Cleric?

The mounted fighter really has one main advantage that didn't get addressed - full attacks with a move.  Of course, at this level, the -4 penalty hurts, and the fighter probably hasn't gotten enough feats yet for Mounted Archery, which is why I'm still not convinced he's definitely got the advantage.  But it's not as much of a runaway as you make it seem.

Ithamar

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 959
  • PM me if you're interested in some Arena action!
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2011, 12:23:18 AM »
Unfortunately cloistered cleric archers end up being incredibly MAD, since you need WIS, INT, CHA, & CON.  A high DEX at the start is definitely a plus as well, until you can actually grab Zen Archery, and you should probably figure at least a STR 10.  Unless you're using a fairly high point buy, you're going to have a rough go of it, at least for the first several levels.
Are you worthy of Ascension?
Always accepting gladiators!  Now with a new and improved rule set!

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2011, 12:32:22 AM »
Unfortunately cloistered cleric archers end up being incredibly MAD, since you need WIS, INT, CHA, & CON.  A high DEX at the start is definitely a plus as well, until you can actually grab Zen Archery, and you should probably figure at least a STR 10.  Unless you're using a fairly high point buy, you're going to have a rough go of it, at least for the first several levels.
Also, I see everyone saying that two domains = two feats, but as far as I can tell you can only get PBS from the Elf domain.  Sure, you can get Weapon Focus from the War domain... but seriously?

The best archer is a Swift Hunter with FE: Arcanists, Sword of the Arcane Order, and probably a few Shooting Star sub-levels.

Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2011, 12:38:03 AM »
I'm personally partial to the Psychic Warrior as a 1-20 archer.  At high levels, your Spot checks and BAB might start to feel like they're waning, but Slayer fixes both of those and gives you Cerebral Immunity to boot.

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2011, 01:26:49 AM »
Unfortunately cloistered cleric archers end up being incredibly MAD, since you need WIS, INT, CHA, & CON.  A high DEX at the start is definitely a plus as well, until you can actually grab Zen Archery, and you should probably figure at least a STR 10.  Unless you're using a fairly high point buy, you're going to have a rough go of it, at least for the first several levels.
Also, I see everyone saying that two domains = two feats, but as far as I can tell you can only get PBS from the Elf domain.  Sure, you can get Weapon Focus from the War domain... but seriously?

Time domain: improved initative
Planning domain: extend spell
Undeath domain: extra turning

And I could always trade a domain for a devotion feat too

Nachofan99

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2011, 02:32:00 AM »
Quote
How are you getting a point of BAB at third level as a Cloistered Cleric?

Yeah my bad, you get it at 2nd.  But you can see that the Mounted archer Fighter just doesn't have the feats to actually do mounted archery at those levels as well which I agree with you on Faithless.  Don't forget that you can build a Full-Round attack, Rapid Fire, move as a Swift Action Travel Devotion CC at a low level.  Just saying.

As ninjarabbit already stated, you get your choice of a variety of good feats regarding domain selections.  CC is 3 feats, and some class features, and 1st level spells, and turn undead for 1 level.  If you're allowed to mix and match freely, adding CC to any of these builds helps a tremendous amount because it's just that good.

Agree that CC can be MAD, but it's not end of the world MAD.  You don't absolutely *need* Int or Cha - although having them certainly is beneficial.  Compare to adding Int/Cha to a Fighter which nets you virtually 0.

The lack of rebuilding hurts this though, obviously.

And again, when put under an intense microscope, maybe the CC is not 100% as good at pure archery as a random combination of classes at specific levels - but - in the vast majority of campaigns when is pure archery absolutely all that matters?  I still say CC has a very realistic chance of being the best A&A around in typical campaigns.

The definition of "Best" I guess is what it comes down to.  Max dps, overall utility while filling an archery role etc?

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2011, 03:52:23 AM »
How do Archivists fare as archers?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2011, 04:37:55 AM »
Quote
How do Archivists fare as archers?

Having played an Archivist archer before my old group switched over to 4.0, I can field that one!

1.  Knowledge Devotion + Dark Tactics = fun, makes up for the poor BAB.
2.  Rangers spells are pretty bangin' for an archer, and an Archivist can get them without dipping into Prestige Ranger, which costs a caster level and some feats at best, and is totally not allowed by your DM at worst.
3.  Elves make sorta crappy* Archivists.  There goes your main way of getting weapon proficiency, I guess!
4.  In general, Archivists are WAY more pressed for feats than their closest analogue, the Cloistered Cleric.
5.  No DMM without multiclassing - but DMM is stupid and broken and I hate it, so that's OK.

*I say sorta crappy, because Elf Dilettante is pretty cool.  But you're playing an Archivist archer!  Where the hell did you find an extra feat to take Elf Dilettante??

SUMMARY: Decent archer, but not earth-shattering without a lot of work.  The Cloistered Cleric is definitely better earlier thanks to domains (you can front-load your feats, at a bare minimum getting Knowledge Devotion for free, and possibly picking up Travel Devotion, PBS, metamagic, or weapon proficiencies).  I'd argue that once you've taken the major feats, the Archivist catches up and maybe even surpasses the CC.  That is, unless you're using DMM, in which case you either PrC out to Sacred Exorcist, or you watch as the Cloistered Cleric laughs in your face.

When I played my Archivist, I came in at level 6, and so I was able to start with some decent feats in place and longbow proficiency (in my case, via the Ruathar prestige class).  I was playing a human, because I always play humans, but an Uurkrau Illumian would probably have been even better.  I also had a DM who didn't make it too difficult to obtain Ranger and Paladin spells, which certainly helped.

The character was a pretty bangin' archer.  However, he wouldn't have been a particularly good archer at, say, any level prior to the one he started at.  He still would have been a solid character, don't get me wrong - after all, he still would have had five levels in Archivist.  But archery in particular would have been worse than a fighter or a ranger (yuck!).

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2011, 06:45:13 AM »
Unfortunately cloistered cleric archers end up being incredibly MAD, since you need WIS, INT, CHA, & CON.  A high DEX at the start is definitely a plus as well, until you can actually grab Zen Archery, and you should probably figure at least a STR 10.  Unless you're using a fairly high point buy, you're going to have a rough go of it, at least for the first several levels.
Also, I see everyone saying that two domains = two feats, but as far as I can tell you can only get PBS from the Elf domain.  Sure, you can get Weapon Focus from the War domain... but seriously?

Time domain: improved initative
Planning domain: extend spell
Undeath domain: extra turning

And I could always trade a domain for a devotion feat too
In other words, your typical cleric must choose between Precise Shot and Rapid Shot at first level.  Fighters get all three.  Rangers get Rapid Shot at 2nd, and even Scouts get a bonus feat to help the crunch.  None of these other classes necessarily have to take Zen Archery at 6th, either.

zugschef

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 331
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2011, 11:30:19 AM »
and let's not forget that in a forgotten realms campaign you will be hard pressed to find a deity fitting your character concept while at the same time providing your domains of choice.

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2011, 09:55:46 PM »
Elven deities in FR with solid domain choices

Aerdrie Faenya: Air, Animal, Chaos, Good (also Elf and Storm in Forgotten Realms)
Erevan Ilesere: Chaos, Elf, Luck, Trickery
Hanali Celanil: Chaos, Good, Magic, Protection (also Charm and Elf in Forgotten Realms)
Labelas Enoreth: Chaos, Good, Knowledge (also Elf and Time in Forgotten Realms)
Solonor Thelandira: Chaos, Good, Plant, War (bow) (also Elf in Forgotten Realms)