Author Topic: What's the best archer build?  (Read 9155 times)

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Endarire

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What's the best archer build?
« on: March 31, 2011, 06:04:21 PM »
Intro - READ ME!
For this, I assume the archer is part of a party.  The only thing you know is you have reliable access to greater magic weapon from yourself or a teammate.

The group starts at ECL1 and the campaign lasts an indefinite time.  There is a heavy emphasis on being effective as a team from ECL1.  Clerics are OK from level 1, but only become serious archers around level 7.

All 3.5 source material is allowed pending GM approval.  Unupdated 3.0 stuff is OK too.  No "Dragon."
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Ithamar

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2011, 06:36:27 PM »
As I recall, someone (fairly sure it is carnivore) has a Duskblade / Abjurant Champion / Arcane Archer build that was very viable 1 to 20.  I'd recommend looking into that.
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Solo

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2011, 06:39:10 PM »
I've always been partial for Soulbows for archery, but they're unfortunately restricted to just archery and get no spells or powers.

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Tethlis

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2011, 06:45:41 PM »
As I recall, someone (fairly sure it is carnivore) has a Duskblade / Abjurant Champion / Arcane Archer build that was very viable 1 to 20.  I'd recommend looking into that.

Along these lines I like Bard 7 / Arcane Archer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 Eldritch Knight 4. Just be sure to pick up Song of the Heart, Dragonfire Inspiration, and Words of Creation to buff inspire courage and go to town with 9th level spells, BAB of 17, and the ability to shoot people with anti magic zone arrows.

ninjarabbit

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2011, 07:33:28 PM »
Cloistered clerics are the best archers at level 1. Your domain choices will grant you up to 2 feats putting you on par with the fighter, you get knowledge devotion so you'll get +1/+1 or +2/+2 on a good roll, and you will have a few spells to boost you like magic weapon and divine favor.

Nachofan99

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2011, 07:41:54 PM »
Cloistered clerics are the best archers at level 1. Your domain choices will grant you up to 2 feats putting you on par with the fighter, you get knowledge devotion so you'll get +1/+1 or +2/+2 on a good roll, and you will have a few spells to boost you like magic weapon and divine favor.

I heavily agree. Some combination of Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Zen Archery and possibly other feats depending on race/flaws is pretty sweet at level 1.  And obviously, as a tier 1 class, not only are you reasonably great as an archer you're a full divine caster along the way.

I think in a relatively generic campaign setting with more or less "reasonable" amounts of power, the cloistered cleric archer is the best bet.

JaronK

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2011, 07:59:41 PM »
Actually I've found that at lower levels (8 and below) mounted Fighter archers do best at the standard "pump arrows into the enemy" concept.  Make sure you're small and get a flying or climbing medium sized mount as soon as possible (I prefer Desmoderu Hunting Bats from MMII, as they're established domesticated creatures, but see also Races of Stone, Drow of the Underdark, and A&EG for other options).  Just pick up a bunch of solid archery feats (Rapid Shot, Mounted Archery, Woodland Archery, etc) and use the Targetteer variant Fighter (gets two exotic ranged weapons instead of martial weapon proficiency, and more importantly can take dex to damage with ranged attacks instead of a feat).  Halfling is an obvious race to use... you might even want to use Halfling Skiprocks and a War Sling.

A two level dip into Ranger for Rapid Shot (as well as some spot ranks) is advisable, of course.  But the nice thing about this is that it's solid from level 1, while Cloistered Clerics don't really take off until they can persist Divine Power (around level 7).

But if you do go the Cleric route, Knowledge Devotion, DMM, and a dip into PrC Ranger for the Ranger only archery buffs is highly advised.

JaronK

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2011, 08:52:57 PM »
The Swift & Deadly Druid variant with Zen Archery also can do quite well.  Dip into PrC Ranger for this one as well.  Andyou also have access to Owl's Insight later on to further fuel your AC, ranged attack bonus, and spell DC's.  Not to mention you still get an animal companion and the other druidic goodies.
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Nachofan99

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2011, 08:59:40 PM »
While I do agree with you about the Fighter being a good option here JaronK, I don't see how Fighter 1 is going to put up better numbers than the Cloistered Cleric at 1st.

Long winded but short and imperfect analysis below.

[spoiler]If we assume we're the same race, with the same point buy, same number of flaws allowed etc. considering just the difference between 2 Domains+Knowledge Devotion compared 1 Bonus Feat and 1 BaB isn't the Cloistered Cleric still ahead at level 1? 

Knowledge Devotion is at worst equal to +1 BaB, but sometimes even at level 1 better - therefore it is better.
Knowledge Devotion is what, usually equal, but sometimes superior to the damage from a +1 str mod bow - therefore it is better.
Fighter Bonus Feat.  2 Domains=2 Fighter Bonus Feats.  2>1.
Fighter has more HP. Cleric has more healing.  I will call that a toss up if you like, however, it's easy to die at low levels, especially 1.
Probably the same Fort saves.
Cloistered Cleric unarguably better Will save. 
Fighter has possibly a better Reflex save, maybe.
Bardic Knowledge is clearly better than nothing.
Lots of skill points is clearly superior to very few.
Turn Undead vs nothing.
You get heavy armor, but, aren't you going to have a high dex?  Won't that hose your movement probably?  Again this is level 1.

At 2nd level, Fighter picks up another BaB and another Feat.  CC gets just about squat except my Knowledge Devotion checks get 5% more probable, and another 1st and 0th level spell.  I would agree that at 2nd level, the Fighter is probably equal to, or possibly better than, the CC at archery.  But at "adventuring"?  I still have spells.

3rd level when we both get a feat and a BaB, I get 2nd level spells. Again, my Knowledge Devotion checks are getting better.  I'd say CC takes this level.

4th - Fighter better at archery, possibly.  Better at adventuring? Doubtful.

5th - Cleric picks up 3rd level spells.  Fighter doesn't even get a feat (if you're still straight fighter, multiclassing/dipping will obviously help).  Cleric is obviously the better adventure and certainly can be a good enough archer.

6th - Fighter probably does very well this level with a 2nd attack and another feat.  Totally willing to admit they are probably the better archer for and at this level.  Better adventurer though?  Probably not.  In addition if retraining or rebuilding is in effect, I could do a Dex/Wis/feat rebuild and get in Zen Archery.

7th - 4th level spells for CC.  No feat for Fighter. CC takes it.

8th+ - 4th level spells are just too good, and the rest of the way is Divine Power or better.  CC all the way. [/spoiler]

I can totally agree that the Fighter might be a better archer at a few of those levels, especially if you're adding in Ranger as I talk about below.  But I still think CC will be a better archer at 1st and 3rd. Possibly 5th as well.  But as we know, the CC is just going to be a better overall adventurer at all of those levels in a standard game. 


Now, obviously, you mix in some Fighter, you mix in some Ranger (could you even mix in some Whirling Frenzy Barbarian for more Dex?) and you're going to tear up the lowest levels of the game as a more competent archer -AND- you're a significantly better adventurer, thanks to Ranger helping out all the weak areas. 

Save improvements, skill points help a ton, Ranger gets tons of bonus feats vs taking dead Fighter levels etc. 

But in that case, wouldn't you say "Damn the Torpedoes!" and take your first level in Ranger for the ass-ton of skill points instead of even fooling around with Fighter for 1st? That makes a lot more sense, but, I'm sure you can agree that a 1st level CC is better than a 1st level Ranger at Archery and Adventuring - A&A.  Even weaving Ranger and Fighter together I still think you're only getting a modest increase in power.

I do like the Targetteer+Skiprocks+Halfling idea throwing in Drow Hit-and-Run Fighter variant but now we're making more of a "thrower" than an "archer".  If that counts, I am heavily with you on an early combination of Fighter and Ranger - with help from Cloistered Cleric; the power of a 1 level dip is just too great and opens up lots of possibilities.

I enjoy building and playing classes from the ground up, and since that is part of the OP's question, I do appreciate looking at a build in the context of each level.  I just think CC simply handles every level a lot easier and without significant issues.

The druid idea is neat but won't the 3 BaB req for Zen Archery interfere with feat selection?  Like, are you going to take Zen Archery at 3rd and get no use from it until 4th/5th depending on where you mix in Ranger?  That means you kind of suck at those levels, and the OP is basically looking for a house at all levels of progression.  Of course, re-training complicates the shit out of this - actually I have to ask the OP about that.




Endaire:  If you are allowing retraining, and you said the campaign last an indefinite time, then couldn't the character be the best archer at every level because he could constantly rebuild into it?

Ithamar

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2011, 09:56:10 PM »
Since Knowledge Devo requires 5 ranks in a Knowledge skill, can you technically even use it at level 1?

Zen Archery requires +1 BAB actually, not +3.  So take it at level 3.  With a decent DEX (which you likely want anyway), you'll survive until level 3 no problem.  And hey, even if you can't contribute much to the group via archery for the first 2 levels, at least you have your animal companion to help out.
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lans

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2011, 10:15:31 PM »
JaronK is also using a variant that gives proficiency in 2 exotic ranged weapons which gives a point of damage or something weird.  Also a potential choice of dex to damage which is probably the kicker.
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Endarire

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2011, 11:44:44 PM »
No retraining.  Forgot 'bout that.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

sir_argenon

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2011, 11:55:15 PM »
any real archer build must include 10 levels of peerless archer, from silver marches. 

4d6 SA, 10' threaten, and power attack.... and much more.  thats by far the best archer prc in dnd. 

Kajhera

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2011, 11:58:20 PM »
Since Knowledge Devo requires 5 ranks in a Knowledge skill, can you technically even use it at level 1?

Only if you get it by trading the Knowledge domain rather than taking it as a feat.

symisin

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2011, 01:31:51 AM »
im surprised no one has said the artificer yet :twitch

veekie

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2011, 01:54:13 AM »
The problem(or rather where it actually went right) is all the caster type archers don't exactly hit the ground running initially. Buffs take time to put up and they don't last very long yet, and BAB is still a concern initially due to qualifications.
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nijineko

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2011, 02:39:56 AM »
i'm surprised that no one has mentioned snowowl's archer thread, excellent resource.
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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2011, 03:17:36 AM »
i'm surprised that no one has mentioned snowowl's archer thread, excellent resource.

+1


The best archers IMO are clerics.
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Mixster

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2011, 12:11:24 PM »
As I recall, someone (fairly sure it is carnivore) has a Duskblade / Abjurant Champion / Arcane Archer build that was very viable 1 to 20.  I'd recommend looking into that.

Along these lines I like Bard 7 / Arcane Archer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 Eldritch Knight 4. Just be sure to pick up Song of the Heart, Dragonfire Inspiration, and Words of Creation to buff inspire courage and go to town with 9th level spells, BAB of 17, and the ability to shoot people with anti magic zone arrows.

You need to move those levels around a bit. Arcane Archer needs BAB +6. But You also cannot enter Sublime Chord till level 10 anyway (since it needs 13 in two skills). Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3 Would probably be better except that you only just get 9th level spells at level 20, and then only 1 spell known.
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nightshade

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Re: What's the best archer build?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2011, 12:35:13 PM »
any real archer build must include 10 levels of peerless archer, from silver marches.  

4d6 SA, 10' threaten, and power attack.... and much more.  thats by far the best archer prc in dnd.  
Not as good as you think. Swift Hunter with Hanks Bow and Travel Devotion works a lot better than this PrC.