Divine rank 1 verus Epic Magic?

[the_shadowmind]

Assume that in a epic level game (21~30ish) the DM has given a choice, you can either have Divine rank 1 or develop Epic spells. Which is the stronger option?

With Divine rank 1 you can get Alter reality which is every spell 9th level (with no exp or material costs) and below as a standard action(or with a rest period with metamagic, and any non-epic metamagic), any magical or supernatural effect permanent(possibly psionic effects depending on transparency) making almost any magic item(duplicate wish to make a magic item) any amount of money(duplicate true creation or wish).

With Epic magic you can get +Yes to all your everything, do Yes amount of damage, create new species,with your chain gated Solars providing the spell slots to Mitigate the development cost, but your limited to 2 or 3 epic spells a day(most have week or longer duration means that doesn't mean much.)

[KellKheraptis]

Assume that in a epic level game (21~30ish) the DM has given a choice, you can either have Divine rank 1 or develop Epic spells. Which is the stronger option?

With Divine rank 1 you can get Alter reality which is every spell 9th level (with no exp or material costs) and below as a standard action(or with a rest period with metamagic, and any non-epic metamagic), any magical or supernatural effect permanent(possibly psionic effects depending on transparency) making almost any magic item(duplicate wish to make a magic item) any amount of money(duplicate true creation or wish).

With Epic magic you can get +Yes to all your everything, do Yes amount of damage, create new species,with your chain gated Solars providing the spell slots to Mitigate the development cost, but your limited to 2 or 3 epic spells a day(most have week or longer duration means that doesn't mean much.)

Epic spells can be developed to become a god, if you really want divine rank.  Hell, you can do it relatively cheese free by level 10 even as a Red Wizard   Besides, Mythals > All.

[bearsarebrown]

I think they can both grant each other. Assuming that is not an option, I'd take the Divine Rank. Alter Reality simply breaks the game in half harder then Epic Spellcasting does.

[veekie]

I think they can both grant each other. Assuming that is not an option, I'd take the Divine Rank. Alter Reality simply breaks the game in half harder then Epic Spellcasting does.

Easier you mean. Epic Spellcasting requires dicking around with factors and modifiers. Alter Reality just picks off spells you want.

[bearsarebrown]

I meant that it breaks it in a more significant manner. But it is true that it's easier to break as well.

[Widow]

Epic spells are definately more powerful if done properly, but I would choose the divine rank.  The DM make think he knows what he is getting into with divine rank, but he has no clue when the epic spells start flying.  I have been hit with the ban hammer too many times and still have shell shock.

Another consideration is if the character just does not want to play a spell caster (confusing I know), and wants to play some kind of giant war beast.  Alter reality may allow a melee build to stay relavent by just heaping on tons of effective spell casting ability from one easy source.

[nijineko]

divine rank grants abilities now, in game, and allows for highly effective manipulation. epic spells take time to research, and unless granted said time by dm fiat, are going to be a very limited one shot wonder, if potentially an insanely powerful one shot.

given the choice, i'd more likely pick the divine rank.

[Phoenix00]

Epic Magic is stronger
Divine Rank is simpler but still strong

It is the difference between playing a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant (with only Beguiler and Cleric spells) vs a paranoid wizard.  The paranoid wizard may be stronger since wizard spells are better than cleric spells, but the Rainbow Servant does it spontaneously at a drop of a hat.

[KellKheraptis]

divine rank grants abilities now, in game, and allows for highly effective manipulation. epic spells take time to research, and unless granted said time by dm fiat, are going to be a very limited one shot wonder, if potentially an insanely powerful one shot.

given the choice, i'd more likely pick the divine rank.

Time is the absolute LAST of my concerns if I have access to Epic Spellcasting

[skydragonknight]

Divine Rank abilities are Su, right? As in, Disjunction and even Epic Dispel mean nothing, correct?

Do you get immunity to AMFs at DR1? If so, that would make for a nice anti-caster.

[veekie]

You should be immune to AMFs even at DvR 0 I think.

[Ithamar]

one mile per divine rank.
-As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity.

OK, so I copied/pasted more stuff than needed.  Some of that stuff can be replicated by spells.  But the fact it is all automatic and not subject to any chance of ever being dispelled, reduced, removed, etc. (even by epic magic) is pretty useful.

Plus the deities can create magic items, use domain spells as SLA's, and still get to choosits DSA's.  I'll take the divine rank any day.

[Endarire]

I'm somewhat surprised no one favored Epic Spellcasting so much.

I'd go with Divine Rank.  That's uber now.  You can also truthfully answer "yes" to this question.

[KellKheraptis]

I'm somewhat surprised no one favored Epic Spellcasting so much.

I'd go with Divine Rank.  That's uber now.  You can also truthfully answer "yes" to this question.

Only those of us that favor taking divine rank the arcane way and then cementing it with impenetrable Epic Spell defenses   Call me the Raistlin of the bunch...I don't become a god, I become THE GOD, kill all the gods, and take over the multiverse

[awaken DM golem]

Oh, you mean take the DvR 1 and then casually take Epic Spells feat ... 




To take a contrary position, for the sake of argument ...

Epic Spells is only gonna happen 2 per day, and the wording has to be rather exact
vs.
Instantly a whole bunch of goodies, including an (sp) version of a few 9th level spells

I'd bet the second is easier to handle, right off the bat.

[KellKheraptis]

Oh, you mean take the DvR 1 and then casually take Epic Spells feat ... 




To take a contrary position, for the sake of argument ...

Epic Spells is only gonna happen 2 per day, and the wording has to be rather exact
vs.
Instantly a whole bunch of goodies, including an (sp) version of a few 9th level spells

I'd bet the second is easier to handle, right off the bat.

Let's not forget with both epic and non-epic spells I can get extra HD (aka more epic spell slots), infinite time for whatever, actual and effective DvR, and blanket immunity to EVERYTHING, including MDJ.  Do I stand alone in support of the power of Epic Spellcasting?

[awaken DM golem]

You are not alone (reepy michael jackson reference).
 


Sure, Epic Spell + good CO-ing = Win.
And yeah the Breaking The Core thread gets all sorts of goodies without needing Epic anything.

I guess I'm just saying Wish (sp) is an obvious in your face super powered thingy to have.
Time Stop (sp) gets infinite time with a few restricitons.
etc ...
Compared to Transform seed + tricky wording + Thrallherd semi-loops.
I'm not saying it can't be done.
I'm saying it's Easy Bake Oven super powers vs. high C.O.

[Benly]

Let's not forget with both epic and non-epic spells I can get extra HD (aka more epic spell slots), infinite time for whatever, actual and effective DvR, and blanket immunity to EVERYTHING, including MDJ.  Do I stand alone in support of the power of Epic Spellcasting?

For my part, I have two main problems with epic spellcasting.

First: it all runs on guidelines, like custom items. It's all explicitly "work this part out with your GM, see what works for you". To an extent, epic spellcasting abuse amounts to you telling the GM "I am awesome and break your game now" and the GM saying "okay". What the GM is envisioning when he lets you take Epic Spellcasting and what you are envisioning might not be the same.
DvR1 and Alter Reality, on the other hand, is clearly spelled out. If the GM gives you DvR1, he knows what he's giving you and you know what you're getting. All the abuses are pretty much spoken for, assuming you know what spells are and aren't banned in your game.

Second: epic spellcasting is a huge headache, and DvR1 is pretty user-friendly.

[Tshern]

Epic spells can also require a number of ad hoc factors that can be easily shot down or altered by the DM. Choosing the divine rank would give you bonuses that don't vary. What is more, if anyone else picks the epic spell route, you might ask them to lend you a hand when it comes to epic buffs and the like.

[Lycanthromancer]

Pre-epic spellcasting is just as powerful as post-epic if you know what you're doing. I'm pretty sure we're all aware of this by now.

DvR1 FTW.