Author Topic: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.  (Read 13323 times)

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Agita

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2011, 07:46:13 PM »
The first could cause the Fey's territory to be overrun by a Demonhoard. And they'd be mad about that.
The fact that they're allowed to flee aside (and depending on the demon horde, they'd probably do so anyway), an overrunning demon horde can easily be counted as an attack with malicious intent. People who enter your territory with the intent of attacking you with malicious intent rather than sightseeing and passing through aren't travellers, they're invaders.
This is one case where twisting of the wording benefits the creatures but doesn't dick the players over.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2011, 09:23:40 PM »
The first could cause the Fey's territory to be overrun by a Demonhoard. And they'd be mad about that.
The fact that they're allowed to flee aside (and depending on the demon horde, they'd probably do so anyway), an overrunning demon horde can easily be counted as an attack with malicious intent. People who enter your territory with the intent of attacking you with malicious intent rather than sightseeing and passing through aren't travellers, they're invaders.
This is one case where twisting of the wording benefits the creatures but doesn't dick the players over.
Knowing veekie, there's some inspiration from Jim Butcher at work here.

Agita

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2011, 09:28:09 PM »
The first could cause the Fey's territory to be overrun by a Demonhoard. And they'd be mad about that.
The fact that they're allowed to flee aside (and depending on the demon horde, they'd probably do so anyway), an overrunning demon horde can easily be counted as an attack with malicious intent. People who enter your territory with the intent of attacking you with malicious intent rather than sightseeing and passing through aren't travellers, they're invaders.
This is one case where twisting of the wording benefits the creatures but doesn't dick the players over.
Knowing veekie, there's some inspiration from Jim Butcher at work here.
Very likely.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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RobbyPants

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2011, 10:41:07 AM »
and that's the point -- getting wishes from an efreeti is never supposed to be "safe".
I'm curious: what wording would you find acceptable to get a standard +1 Inherent bonus to an ability score via Wish from an efreeti?  What exactly would you have to say to get that bonus and not get anything else on the side?
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Gods_Trick

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2011, 12:35:48 PM »
and that's the point -- getting wishes from an efreeti is never supposed to be "safe".
I'm curious: what wording would you find acceptable to get a standard +1 Inherent bonus to an ability score via Wish from an efreeti?  What exactly would you have to say to get that bonus and not get anything else on the side?

Your wish would likely break immersion in some ways. When A D&D player says Charisma or Intelligence, theres a very specific meaning that is not identical to common usage of the words.

Assuming your cool with that, 'A permanent inherent bonus to my Strength that has no negative consequences or ramifications of than the specific one wished for with this phrase'.

Going more fantropic, "I wish for a lasting and irreversible increase to my strength that shall have no ill effect upon myself or my friends.'

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2011, 12:57:14 PM »
and that's the point -- getting wishes from an efreeti is never supposed to be "safe".
I'm curious: what wording would you find acceptable to get a standard +1 Inherent bonus to an ability score via Wish from an efreeti?  What exactly would you have to say to get that bonus and not get anything else on the side?

Your wish would likely break immersion in some ways. When A D&D player says Charisma or Intelligence, theres a very specific meaning that is not identical to common usage of the words.

Assuming your cool with that, 'A permanent inherent bonus to my Strength that has no negative consequences or ramifications of than the specific one wished for with this phrase'.

Going more fantropic, "I wish for a lasting and irreversible increase to my strength that shall have no ill effect upon myself or my friends.'

I believe what Gods_Trick is implying is: optimizers are so accustomed to constantly metagaming they don't even realize they're doing it... constantly.

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LordBlades

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2011, 01:12:23 PM »
I am against screwing up wishes TBH, unless in a certain group everybody finds it funny. If a player is set to break the game, he can find other ways, much less sensitive to rules interpretation to do so. If he's not trying to break the game, screwing his wishes up only detracts him from enjoying the game.

In my group we've decided to go by intent of what is being said rather than the actual wording, in order to avoid long and tiresome discussions every time something that allowed interpretation (charm, suggestion, dominate etc.). We've actually had 10-15 min talks on how to best mess with even stuff as simple as a 'come here' command given to a PC via Suggestion.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2011, 01:24:55 PM »
I think part of the problem is that not all GMs or players possess the quick wit and linguistic dexterity necessary to really run wish. It's like Contact Outer Plane, what DM has planned as far ahead as that spell allows you to see? They exist for sure, but they're certainly not the norm. A lot of the fun of the spell is lost because the designers had a grander intent than most people (Including the designers) could execute.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 01:26:57 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Kajhera

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2011, 01:35:56 PM »
MM: 'Efreet are infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature, and ability to beguile and mislead'.

Planar binding them in the first place is going to induce quite a bit of resentment should you not arrange it with them beforehand, even if they weren't natively cruel and fond of mind games. It's doubtful granted wishes would seem to go wrong immediately, either. Also, they only get 3/day, so they might well have already spent theirs by the time you get around to binding them - as an efreeti, I would definitely seek out non-genie allies who didn't pull me off my plane at an inconvenient time, and work with them instead of some annoying wizard. Screw them over eventually? Sure. I'm immortal. It will happen eventually.

That little paragraph contains the secrets to getting good wishes from an efreeti, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with how you word the wishes. It has to do with diplomacy; making sure you are calling the efreet at a convenient time, and making sure that it is a mutually beneficial agreement that appeals to their nature. They've less reason to screw you over if you're plotting together. In the immediate future.

Calling noble djinn, on the other hand, you definitely have to capture them for them to grant you the wishes. That's just how it works. They are good rather than cruel or vengeful so negotiations might be easier... wait, calling and binding a good creature with an evil magic circle against good is a good spell?  ???

Dominating them seems like where you'd have to figure out your wording real careful, since they start trying to carry out your command to the best of their ability until you tell them otherwise. That could get silly. Also, they would utterly loathe you for that sorta thing.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 01:45:07 PM by Kajhera »

RobbyPants

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2011, 02:30:16 PM »
and that's the point -- getting wishes from an efreeti is never supposed to be "safe".
I'm curious: what wording would you find acceptable to get a standard +1 Inherent bonus to an ability score via Wish from an efreeti?  What exactly would you have to say to get that bonus and not get anything else on the side?

Your wish would likely break immersion in some ways. When A D&D player says Charisma or Intelligence, theres a very specific meaning that is not identical to common usage of the words.

Assuming your cool with that, 'A permanent inherent bonus to my Strength that has no negative consequences or ramifications of than the specific one wished for with this phrase'.

Going more fantropic, "I wish for a lasting and irreversible increase to my strength that shall have no ill effect upon myself or my friends.'
I guess what I'm getting at is, I see this going down in one of three ways, depending on who's running the game:

1) You're fucked.  There is no right answer.  You will get screwed out of this wish, but you hope in vain that it will work.

2) Mister Cavern has picked an acceptable answer or a handful of them, in which case, you're playing "Read MC's Mind".  Not a fun game, IMO.

3) Mister Cavern has not picked out an answer ahead of time, but will review them as he gets them.  You're playing "Mother May I?" with Mister Cavern.  This is about as much fun as option 2, in my book.


Any way you slice it, I just don't see this as going well, or being fun.  I'd either take the approach of saying "pick anything off of the PHB list and you're good", or just not allowing Efreet spamming in the first place.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2011, 03:35:03 PM »
and that's the point -- getting wishes from an efreeti is never supposed to be "safe".
I'm curious: what wording would you find acceptable to get a standard +1 Inherent bonus to an ability score via Wish from an efreeti?  What exactly would you have to say to get that bonus and not get anything else on the side?
@RobbyPants:
From an efreeti, you can just expect to get screwed -- simple as that; he's just cruel and vindictive like that.  If you play with a snake, it will bite you.  Why?  Because it's in its nature to do so.

Going more fantropic, "I wish for a lasting and irreversible increase to my strength that shall have no ill effect upon myself or my friends.'
@Gods_trick:
that's still wide open for interpretation.  :devil

I am against screwing up wishes TBH, unless in a certain group everybody finds it funny.
Well, by now, pretty much everybody should be familiar with the efreet's shtick.  For those who aren't, they are about to learn the lesson of the above-linked fable (of course, in this form it would technically be a parable; but whatever).
Besides, if you're opening that box, then I can only assume that you're prepared to go down that road.

I guess what I'm getting at is, I see this going down in one of three ways, depending on who's running the game:

1) You're fucked.  There is no right answer.  You will get screwed out of this wish, but you hope in vain that it will work.

2) Mister Cavern has picked an acceptable answer or a handful of them, in which case, you're playing "Read MC's Mind".  Not a fun game, IMO.

3) Mister Cavern has not picked out an answer ahead of time, but will review them as he gets them.  You're playing "Mother May I?" with Mister Cavern.  This is about as much fun as option 2, in my book.


Any way you slice it, I just don't see this as going well, or being fun.  I'd either take the approach of saying "pick anything off of the PHB list and you're good", or just not allowing Efreet spamming in the first place.
What mechanism is there (other than DM fiat or gentlemen agreement) to disallow said efreet spamming?  If the players are oblivious to the fact that you get burned when you play with fire, they need to learn that lesson.  If they're gonna get all butt-hurt by learning that lesson this way, then they're probably taking the game way too seriously; in which case, they probably also need to better consider their decisions.

Besides, if you want to get on the wish ride, then you need to be tall enough, and you need to pay full admission; otherwise, you're asking for problems.
I also make sure that all my players know upfront, before the campaign begins, that I don't run padded sumo games -- enter at their own risk.

(disclaimer: I know that I may be coming across as a total gygaxian dick right now .... let me say that such an assumption would probably be short-sighted.  My campaigns are not full of DM dick-waving.  However, at the same time, I do believe in the idea that decisions should have "real" consequences.  Fun has been defined as "learning in a safe environment" ..... the fact that this is a game that happens in the imagination is what makes this a "safe environment" -- to have to further padded-sumo it up is (at best) farcical -- actually takes the "learning" out of the equation, since there aren't even any imaginary consequences.  This sort of Tyranny of Fun makes me sad.)

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If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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TOZ

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2011, 05:21:18 PM »
Handling efreetis is simple.

"Hey, my character has just learned about planar binding and efreetis. What does he know about getting them to grant wishes?"

A: "They are cruel horrible beings that will twist your words to unintended effects."

B: "Evil creatures that will punish careless mortals with literal interpretations."

C: "You don't know."

D: "If approached correctly, respectfully, you can earn a boon from them."

E: "They hold the keys to a new world. Welcome to the Wish Economy."

A-B means 'don't ever do it'. D-E means 'rock on'. C means 'I'm not going to tell you until you try it'.

TL;DR: Figure this shit out with the DM beforehand.

wotmaniac

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2011, 06:26:45 PM »
well, it depends on if you want to invoke a knowledge (planes) check.

but yes, I basically agree with your TL;DR ..... I'm a student of answers A & B -- mainly because that's the way they are described.  however, if the question is never asked and they just do it, then the default is C.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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veekie

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2011, 09:57:09 PM »
The first could cause the Fey's territory to be overrun by a Demonhoard. And they'd be mad about that.
The fact that they're allowed to flee aside (and depending on the demon horde, they'd probably do so anyway), an overrunning demon horde can easily be counted as an attack with malicious intent. People who enter your territory with the intent of attacking you with malicious intent rather than sightseeing and passing through aren't travellers, they're invaders.
This is one case where twisting of the wording benefits the creatures but doesn't dick the players over.
Knowing veekie, there's some inspiration from Jim Butcher at work here.
Very likely.
A little here and a little from there, the terms are limited to ONE lifespan(whether natural or prematurely terminated) used to perform the task. So the first death in pursuit of nonaggression would indeed end the binding and they can then proceed to take their revenge.

Other thing with the Efreet screwing things up, why negotiate?
Mind control them.

Personally I'm inclined towards the more mythologically accurate version.
Theres no 'wish' ability for them to grant wishes inherently, a Wish is simply a contract of labor, which with their magical abilities(Polymorphing for permanent transformations, Permanency for enhancements, teleporting and telekinesis for generally being awesome), immense strength and speed, they can perform in any practical wish.

Also note that traditionally they're sealed in the containers under the wish conditions for the sole reason that some wizard managed to kick their ass and lock them in a can for a rainy day. If the last wish is spent the entity generally goes on a rampage of revenge.
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Gods_Trick

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2011, 02:11:43 AM »

Personally I'm inclined towards the more mythologically accurate version.
Theres no 'wish' ability for them to grant wishes inherently, a Wish is simply a contract of labor, which with their magical abilities(Polymorphing for permanent transformations, Permanency for enhancements, teleporting and telekinesis for generally being awesome), immense strength and speed, they can perform in any practical wish.

Also note that traditionally they're sealed in the containers under the wish conditions for the sole reason that some wizard managed to kick their ass and lock them in a can for a rainy day. If the last wish is spent the entity generally goes on a rampage of revenge.

Very different from the D&D verse though. (I prefer that actually and run my Wishes that way, but thats a houserule for a low magic verse.)

My preference is that efreeti will try to screw you over, but within the bounds of the wish. Wish is a powerful spell, surely your Int 30+ wizard can afford some skull sweat to phrase it well. Its probably going to be metagamed, but we metagame. Period.

Another fact to consider: Efreeti may be malicious as hell, but they're fucked by probabilities. They have no idea how powerful the caster is that bound them. Fuck around, and it might die. Hopefully swiftly. So do they take the risk? If human nature is anything to go by, they will be surly, resentful and twist it to the worst reading possible; the way slaves passively protest through history.

veekie

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2011, 02:23:14 AM »
Well, one thing I'd personally use for Wish wishes, using the CL and CR of the creature generating the wish effect to determine maximum achievable result.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2011, 03:24:41 AM »
Another fact to consider: Efreeti may be malicious as hell, but they're fucked by probabilities. They have no idea how powerful the caster is that bound them. Fuck around, and it might die. Hopefully swiftly. So do they take the risk? If human nature is anything to go by, they will be surly, resentful and twist it to the worst reading possible; the way slaves passively protest through history.

Int of 12 means they're not smart enough to know they're fucked by probabilities.

They really are defined by their hatred of servitude, so they might just prefer to fucking die. I know I would:

"Fuck that bookworm piece of shit who thinks he can contain me, my DM let a level 11 full caster force my CR 8 ass into an encounter (And that fat geeky prick wizard has his whole fucking party here to help him), I'm fucking DONE with this game!

"Oh by the way, I'm an Outsider, I've lived forever already, so it's not like I fucking care if I die. Futhermore, I'm an Outsider, and outsiders in D&D are literally abstract concepts personified. That's why their soul is the same as their body. I hate servitude, as an Efreeti it is everything that I am. So fuck your pimple-faced wizard in the ass for me, because I'm 3 levels too low to do it myself. I go gladly to my death. I was a miserable wretch anyway, without my racial ability score adjustments my stats were 11, 11, 10, 10, 11, 11, what shitty stats! How EMBARRASSING! I can't wait to fucking delete and re-roll, maybe not as a creature who routinely gets targeted for rape."
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Gods_Trick

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2011, 03:38:12 AM »
Another fact to consider: Efreeti may be malicious as hell, but they're fucked by probabilities. They have no idea how powerful the caster is that bound them. Fuck around, and it might die. Hopefully swiftly. So do they take the risk? If human nature is anything to go by, they will be surly, resentful and twist it to the worst reading possible; the way slaves passively protest through history.

Int of 12 means they're not smart enough to know they're fucked by probabilities.

They really are defined by their hatred of servitude, so they might just prefer to fucking die. I know I would:

"Fuck that bookworm piece of shit who thinks he can contain me, my DM let a level 11 full caster force my CR 8 ass into an encounter (And that fat geeky prick wizard has his whole fucking party here to help him), I'm fucking DONE with this game!

"Oh by the way, I'm an Outsider, I've lived forever already, so it's not like I fucking care if I die. Futhermore, I'm an Outsider, and outsiders in D&D are literally abstract concepts personified. That's why their soul is the same as their body. I hate servitude, as an Efreeti it is everything that I am. So fuck your pimple-faced wizard in the ass for me, because I'm 3 levels too low to do it myself. I go gladly to my death. I was a miserable wretch anyway, without my racial ability score adjustments my stats were 11, 11, 10, 10, 11, 11, what shitty stats! How EMBARRASSING! I can't wait to fucking delete and re-roll, maybe not as a creature who routinely gets targeted for rape."

 :lmao If I may be allowed the conceit of social evolution here, I think we're breeding a less stupid Efreeti race here.

veekie

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Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2011, 04:44:44 AM »
Bonus, in some settings being killed off while Called as an Outsider/Elemental just means you spend a few years/decades/centuries watching a loading screen while you recorporate.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

TOZ

  • Monkey bussiness
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  • Posts: 7
Re: Screw your efreeti, and the planar binding he rode in on.
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2011, 05:48:20 AM »
Man, no wonder the efreetis are assholes then, always getting forced into bondage or sworded into Windows loading screens.