Author Topic: What's the best blaster build?  (Read 15677 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2011, 12:39:47 AM »
High levels?  Chain spell + master of the unseen hand is your friend.  You can make 21 full attacks/round, assuming CL optimization for the only spell you'll ever cast.
Eh?

I hope you are not talking about Full Attack Telekinesis.
Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm
Base Attack Bonus
A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.

If not, do go on.
You use CL (+int/cha mod) for BAB.  The 21 full attacks comes from using chain spell to telekinese twenty one different weapons, each of which you use to full attack.  

And you do that by concentrating on the spell, so you still have a move action to flip the party fighter the bird.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 12:43:44 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Tethlis

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2011, 02:47:21 AM »
With swift concentration from complete scoundrel couldn't you maintain concentration in the second round, cast chain telekinesis again, and get 42 full attacks the following round? Or maintain concentration as a swift action and cast a battle field control spell? If your DM counts coup de grace as a full round attack, Round 1, Chain Telekinesis, round 2 chain hold person and a full attack action with all weapons, round three coup de grace all held targets. Not necessarily optimal but I enjoy the thought of it vs an army. Would have to use weapons with a high crit multiplier.

Edit: Along this thought processes, if the Wizard and Knock-down and improved trip, every time he did more than 10 points of damage with a single hit he would get a free trip attempt, and if successful, get a free follow up attack. Not sure if this is legal but the wording in Full Telekinesis attack (Master of the Unseen Hand level 3) leads me to believe it can be used this way.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 02:54:59 AM by Tethlis »

Zemyla

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2011, 04:50:33 PM »
To hell with swift concentration, use sonorous hum!  It's an underappreciated gem that's like solicit psicrystal, but without the psicrystal.  One of the few reasons not to drop evocation.

SorO_Lost

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2011, 06:30:23 PM »
You use CL (+int/cha mod) for BAB.  The 21 full attacks comes from using chain spell to telekinese twenty one different weapons, each of which you use to full attack.  

And you do that by concentrating on the spell, so you still have a move action to flip the party fighter the bird.
Chain Spell?

Maybe I'm reading into this a bit too much.
Quote
Benefit: Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained so as to affect that primary target normally, then arc to a number of secondary targets equal to your caster level (maximum 20). Each arc affects one secondary target chosen by you, all of which must be within 30 feet of the primary target, and none of which can be affected more than once.
Chaining Telekinsis's Target or Targets: See text doesn't sound right. Also, wouldn't Telekinsis be affecting the weapons and not the monster being attacked by the weapons? And finally, given that neither you, the weapon, and the monster cannot be affected more than once by the Chained affect how exactly do you quintuple anything?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2011, 06:37:29 PM »
TML is referring to a character with levels in Master of the Unseen Hand.

SorO_Lost

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2011, 11:16:10 PM »
TML is referring to a character with levels in Master of the Unseen Hand.
Can you be more round about?

TML mentions 21 full attacks. Sounds like Battle Jump broken.

Given that he said "assuming CL optimization for the only spell you'll ever cast." I assumed he mean some high caster level granted him 21 attacks via a some high BAB thing I've never heard of.

Nope, it's due to Chain Spell.

Which doesn't work like that. You can't even stack two Telekinesis spells on your self, the duration would simply be increased with the second casting.

And now you say it's MotUH.

Umm, how? Sustained Concentration even outright says Combat Maneuver is still a Standard Action and not a free one.

Is this based off a horrible misreading of Full Attack Telekinesis? IE
"the master of the unseen hand can make a full attack, intentionally attacking, bull rushing, disarming, grappling, or tripping more than once per round. Just as nontelekinetic attacks, the master of the unseen hand gains an additional attack for every 5 points of base attack bonus above +1"
Being read as
"the master of the unseen hand can make a full attack, bull rushing, disarming, grappling, or tripping more than once per round. The master of the unseen hand gains an additional full attack for every 5 points of attack bonus above +1"?

Is there another feat or spell this trick requires and you are just assuming I know it? Because I really don't. I R Lost and it's true.





Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2011, 12:19:43 AM »
1)Telekinesis (telekinetic wielder usage version from MotUH) normally has a single target (one unattended or held weapon).  By sustaining concentration, you can move the weapon 20' and make a single attack.
2) The full attack telekinesis class ability upgrades it. It states "when (using combat manuever) or wielding a weapon telekinetically, the master of the unseen hand can make a full attack".
3) Use chain spell.  Your primary target is one weapon.  Your CL (max 20) secondary targets are other unattended weapons within 30 feet of it.
4) You now can direct these CL+1 weapons to move 20' and make a full attack.

This isn't quite as broken as it seems, since you've lost three casting levels, you'll apply DR CL+1 times (which is rather relevant by the time the trick comes online), even with a high BAB you aren't guaranteed to hit, especially with lower iteratives, and weapon-related feats like weapon focus and power attack don't apply. 

On the other hand, if you are willing to invest in CL+1 weapons that overcome the opponent's specific DR, and are fighting an opponent with low AC or high saves/rerolls it's far and away the best blasting you can use.
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Bozwevial

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2011, 01:04:46 AM »
TML is referring to a character with levels in Master of the Unseen Hand.
Can you be more round about?
I'm honestly not sure why this wasn't clear. TML's original post referred to both Chain Spell and MotUH, which is everything relevant to the trick.

But yeah, even if you want to leave those two out, you could always stick to the violent thrust option and hurl weapons around, which isn't nearly as good because you have to use your own BAB, but theoretically you could pick up a skillful weapon to improve that.

SorO_Lost

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2011, 09:46:18 AM »
1)Telekinesis (telekinetic wielder usage version from MotUH) normally has a single target (one unattended or held weapon).  By sustaining concentration, you can move the weapon 20' and make a single attack.
2) The full attack telekinesis class ability upgrades it. It states "when (using combat manuever) or wielding a weapon telekinetically, the master of the unseen hand can make a full attack".
3) Use chain spell.  Your primary target is one weapon.  Your CL (max 20) secondary targets are other unattended weapons within 30 feet of it.
4) You now can direct these CL+1 weapons to move 20' and make a full attack.

This isn't quite as broken as it seems, since you've lost three casting levels, you'll apply DR CL+1 times (which is rather relevant by the time the trick comes online), even with a high BAB you aren't guaranteed to hit, especially with lower iteratives, and weapon-related feats like weapon focus and power attack don't apply. 

On the other hand, if you are willing to invest in CL+1 weapons that overcome the opponent's specific DR, and are fighting an opponent with low AC or high saves/rerolls it's far and away the best blasting you can use.
Now I understand what you mean. Thanks, it even looks legal when told that way. :)

btw. Use harpoons & Sharktooth Staffs.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Ras F

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2011, 12:57:19 AM »
1)Telekinesis (telekinetic wielder usage version from MotUH) normally has a single target (one unattended or held weapon).  By sustaining concentration, you can move the weapon 20' and make a single attack.
2) The full attack telekinesis class ability upgrades it. It states "when (using combat manuever) or wielding a weapon telekinetically, the master of the unseen hand can make a full attack".
3) Use chain spell.  Your primary target is one weapon.  Your CL (max 20) secondary targets are other unattended weapons within 30 feet of it.
4) You now can direct these CL+1 weapons to move 20' and make a full attack.

This isn't quite as broken as it seems, since you've lost three casting levels, you'll apply DR CL+1 times (which is rather relevant by the time the trick comes online), even with a high BAB you aren't guaranteed to hit, especially with lower iteratives, and weapon-related feats like weapon focus and power attack don't apply. 

On the other hand, if you are willing to invest in CL+1 weapons that overcome the opponent's specific DR, and are fighting an opponent with low AC or high saves/rerolls it's far and away the best blasting you can use.
Now I understand what you mean. Thanks, it even looks legal when told that way. :)

btw. Use harpoons & Sharktooth Staffs.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2011, 04:07:27 AM »
If you want to be nasty, soak them in minor creationed drow sleep poison.  Sure, with that low a save DC only one hit in twenty will actually cause any poisoning, but it's a cheap way to take unlucky people out of combat.

That said, combined arms tends to be the best option, since people are generally easier to hit after being dust grenaded and bug juiced and tanglefoot bagged (even if one-shot consumables take up all four iteratives for that particular link of the chain)
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JaronK

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2011, 04:10:37 AM »
Drow Sleep Poison isn't explicitly any type of material, while Minor Creation requires specific material types.  That's why Black Lotus and Sinmaker's Surprise are the go to examples for that... they're both explicitly made of vegetable matter.

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2011, 06:48:08 PM »
Drow Sleep Poison isn't explicitly any type of material, while Minor Creation requires specific material types.  That's why Black Lotus and Sinmaker's Surprise are the go to examples for that... they're both explicitly made of vegetable matter.

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2011, 06:54:15 PM »
Drow Sleep Poison isn't explicitly any type of material, while Minor Creation requires specific material types.  That's why Black Lotus and Sinmaker's Surprise are the go to examples for that... they're both explicitly made of vegetable matter.

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I thought the fluff said it came from some kind of mushroom. I'll have to look for that when I get time.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What's the best blaster build?
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2011, 08:34:55 PM »
Drow Sleep Poison isn't explicitly any type of material, while Minor Creation requires specific material types.  That's why Black Lotus and Sinmaker's Surprise are the go to examples for that... they're both explicitly made of vegetable matter.

JaronK
DotU? mentions the materials, which can be made with minor creation.
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