Author Topic: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?  (Read 4390 times)

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DraconicDon

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Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« on: March 21, 2011, 06:26:58 PM »
This is my first real attempt at building a character from levels 1 to 20.  I think I did alright but I would like some feedback on how I could improve not only this build but other builds in the future.  As far as I see one of the bigger problems with this build is that it is Multi Attribute Dependant (MAD), but I think I managed to do so effectively.  I also do not have much in the name of equipment decided.  I think I have wasted enough time, on with the build!

Concept:Party needed a skill monkey, but I wanted to be useful in combat.  I figured sneak attacks would be the way to go, and flanking would help more than just me.  Go team!

Race: Human

Starting Attributes:
[spoiler]STR:16
DEX:18
CON:15
INT:16
WIS:10
CHA:10[/spoiler]


Level Progression:
[spoiler]Level 1:
Lv1 Rogue
Human Feat:  Improved Unarmed Strike
Feat: Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2:
Lv2 Rogue

Level 3:
Lv1 Sword Sage
-Discipline Focus (Short Sword)
Feat: Shadow Blade

Level 4:
Lv1 Swashbuckler
-Feat: Weapon Finesse (Short sword)
Attribute: Dex

Level 5:
Lv2 Swashbuckler
-Feat:

Level 6:
Lv 1 Assassin
Feat: Daring Outlaw

Level 7:
Lv3 Swashbuckler


Level 8:
Lv1 Fighter
-Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes
Attribute Point: Dex

Level 9:
Lv2 Fighter
-Bonus Feat: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: Vexing Flanker

Levels 10-11:
Swashbuckler

Level 12:
Lv6 Swashbuckler
Feat: Snap Kick
Ability Point: Dex

Level 13-14:
Swashbuckler

Level 15:
Lv9 Swashbuckler
Feat: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 16:
Lv1 Barbarian
Totem: Lion Totem
Ability Point: Dex

Level 17:
Lv10 Swashbuckler

Level 18
Lv11 Swashbuckler
Feat: ??????

Level 19:
Lv12 Swashbuckler
Ability Point: Dex

Level 20:
Lv13 Swashbuckler
[/spoiler]

Stances and Maneuvers:
[spoiler]
Stance:
-Island of Blades  (easier flanking)

Maneuvers:
-Burning Blade  (early game maneuver)
-Distracting Ember  ("Look a fire elemental!"  Followed by sneak attacks)
-Mighty Throw   (A little versatility never hurt)
-Sapphire Nightmare Blade   (I invested some skill points in concentration for this)
-sudden leap  (Move with jump as a swift action)
-Charging Minotaur  (**** it)
[/spoiler]

Level 20 Stat Block:
[spoiler]This is with just some basic short swords and chain shirt

M LE Human Rogue Lv2 / SwordSage Lv1, Swashbuckler Lv13, Assassin Lv1, Fighter Lv2  L.T. Barbarian Lv1 Level 20, Init +7, HP ??/??, Speed 30ft
AC 20, Touch 16, Flat-footed 14, Fort +15, Ref +17, Will +6, Base Attack Bonus 17/12/7/2  
 Short Sword  (Main Hand)  Short Sword  (Off Hand)  Unarmed Strike    +23/18/13/8  (1d6 +3,  x2)
 Full Attack   +20/20/15/15/10/10/5/23
 Chain Shirt (+4 Armor, +4 Dex)
Abilities Str 16, Dex 23, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10[/spoiler]

Items:
[spoiler]I haven't read as much into equipment but from what I have read some of the items I think that would be useful for this build would be as follows:

Subtle Short Swords - The Idea here is simple more sneak attack dice
Greater Demolition Augment Crystals   - Sneak attack Construct? Great!
TrueDeath Augment Crystals   - Sneak attack Construct Undead?  Great[/spoiler]


I apologize if this format is confusing,  this is my first time posting something like this.  But any and all feedback is welcome, and I will do my best to answer any questions I can.  Thank you for your time.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 06:05:14 PM by DraconicDon »


Lycanthromancer

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2011, 07:06:26 PM »
Also, champions or ruin's "Craven" feat increases sneak attack dice to d8s.
Actually, Craven adds +1 damage per character level to sneak attack.

Note that this multiplies on a critical hit.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
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[spoiler]
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Periden

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2011, 07:20:14 PM »
Also, champions or ruin's "Craven" feat increases sneak attack dice to d8s.
Actually, Craven adds +1 damage per character level to sneak attack.

Note that this multiplies on a critical hit.

The feat changes from d6's to d8's is called Sacred Strike, and its from BOED.  It only works on evil creatures.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2011, 07:24:56 PM »
@Periden: Has anyone ever told you just how insanely creepy your avatar is?

Also, Sacred Strike? Totally not worth it. I'd spend feats on other things instead. Like Power Attack (which is great if you spring for that...ACF, I think?...that lets you trade 1d6 for +2 to hit. Then you can Power Attack for +6 to damage. Which also applies on a crit.

This stacks with Craven, of course, and allows you to bypass things like Fortification armor.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2011, 07:31:56 PM »
One of my favorite Assassin-style builds involved using Wizard, Factotum, and Eldritch Knight/Abjurant Champion, all mixed to at least 17 BAB/CL (17/18 IIRC) while still netting something like 12d6 SA after casting Hunter's Eye.  It also has a way easier time hitting, thanks to BFC, Polymorphing, and Arcane Strike.
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Periden

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2011, 07:39:43 PM »
@Periden: Has anyone ever told you just how insanely creepy your avatar is?

Also, Sacred Strike? Totally not worth it. I'd spend feats on other things instead. Like Power Attack (which is great if you spring for that...ACF, I think?...that lets you trade 1d6 for +2 to hit. Then you can Power Attack for +6 to damage. Which also applies on a crit.

This stacks with Craven, of course, and allows you to bypass things like Fortification armor.
Nope you are the first one to make such a comment.  Though I must admit, I choose the avatar at random, and it suited me at the moment.

About Sacred Strike, I agree with you about it not worth it, I just wanted to clarify that the feat the person mention was this feat and not Craven.

Craven > Sacred Strike.

Ithamar

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2011, 07:49:45 PM »
(which is great if you spring for that...ACF, I think?...that lets you trade 1d6 for +2 to hit. Then you can Power Attack for +6 to damage.

Wow, where is that ACF found?  That sounds fantastic.
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Tenebrous Apostate

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2011, 08:31:38 PM »
I was working on a sneak attack build myself. It nivolved a Binder\sorcerer\anima mage that binds malphas and andromalius persists fiendform (gadarco) and dragonic polymorph into a Kelvezu. Complimented by critical stirke, a deadly precision weapon and the nightstalker transformation it gets aroun 13 to 15d6 sneak attack per hit(at level 11) ... I'm trying to make some decent BAB to accomodate all this damage  :banghead
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 08:34:51 PM by Tenebrous Apostate »
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Ras F

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2011, 08:42:37 PM »
(which is great if you spring for that...ACF, I think?...that lets you trade 1d6 for +2 to hit. Then you can Power Attack for +6 to damage.

Wow, where is that ACF found?  That sounds fantastic.

It's actually a feat called "Precise Strike"- from Dragon Mag #310. Requires dex 13+, and the ability to sneak attack.
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Amechra

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2011, 08:43:13 PM »
Paimon. Run in circles around the enemies.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2011, 08:46:39 PM »
(which is great if you spring for that...ACF, I think?...that lets you trade 1d6 for +2 to hit. Then you can Power Attack for +6 to damage.

Wow, where is that ACF found?  That sounds fantastic.

It's actually a feat called "Precise Strike"- from Dragon Mag #310. Requires dex 13+, and the ability to sneak attack.
This is why you use a two-handed weapon, armor spikes, and Two Weapon Fighting (or maneuvers, but those require either a dip -- not so bad if you go swordsage 2 -- or some feats for 1/encounter TWF).

Hell, a dip for swordsage 2 for Assassin's Stance and some Tiger Claw maneuvers should be right up your alley.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Ithamar

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2011, 09:12:32 PM »
Precise Strike.  Got it.  I will definitely keep that in mind the next time I'm in a game that allows Dragon. ;)
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Tonymitsu

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2011, 03:29:42 AM »
 :tdown @ Deadly Precision feat.  Get Bracers of Murder from Drow of the Underdark.  For 8k gold it Does exactly the same thing, plus it gives you an extra +2 profane bonus to attack/damage against flat-footed targets (and increases the save DC of your death attack if you're an Assassin).


Take the Hit and Run fighter ACF from that same level for your fighter levels.  You give up heavy armor proficiency and tower shield proficiency (whoop-de-crap) and get a +2 untyped bonus to initiative, and you add your Dex to damage as a competence bonus to flat-footed enemies.  If you're a Swordsage grab Cloak of Deception (Improved Invisibility for 1 round).

Put the Deadly Precision weapon enhancement from Magic Item Compendium on both of your Swords of Subtlety.  +1 enhancement that adds another 1d6 sneak attack.  Rogue's Vest from the same book adds one more.

That plus the Craven feat gives you weapon damage, Strength bonus, twice your Dex bonus, and your character level to all damage rolls against flat-footed targets, before you even pick up Sneak Attack dice.

the Gloom Razor tactical feat, which you already qualify for at this point has several options to help make enemies flat-footed to you.

X-Codes

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2011, 04:25:39 AM »
If you want to be effective in combat, you will not *ever* rely on Sneak Attack for damage.  This includes Craven.

Exception: Precise Strike from Dragon #310.  Use the bonus to your attack rolls to Power Attack with a big two-hander.  Don't bother with TWF, it's not useful in this setup.

Potential build: Rogue 5/Illusionist* 1/Unseen Seer 4/Swiftblade 10
1) Precise Strike
3) Power Attack
6) Improved Initiative (lose Scribe Scroll), Dodge
8) Silent Spell (Free)
9) Mobility
11) Spring Attack (Free)
12) Elusive Target
15) Spell Mastery
17) Bounding Assault (Free)
18) Uncanny Forethought

Hits BAB +16, 5d6 SA, and a CL of 12 for Hunter's Eye.  If you max out both Precise Strike and Power Attack with Hunter's Eye up, you net a +2 bonus on attack rolls and a +32 bonus on damage rolls with a two-handed weapon.  That's +32 damage that has it's full effectiveness against critical-immune monsters instead of 9d6 (average 27.5) damage that's completely ignored by at least half of what you're most likely going to wind up fighting.  Your skill points should be somewhere between epic and godly, with a very good class skills list.  Between flaws and race selection you can add all sorts of abusive elements to this build such as absurdly high caster levels, free metamagic, etc., but I'll leave it to you just how much you want to do that/how much your DM will tolerate.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 04:28:57 AM by X-Codes »

DraconicDon

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Re: Sneak attack build, Am I doing it right?
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2011, 11:39:12 AM »
Much thanks for all the feedback.

That plus the Craven feat gives you weapon damage, Strength bonus, twice your Dex bonus, and your character level to all damage rolls against flat-footed targets, before you even pick up Sneak Attack dice.

would I get twice my dex bonus? Does it stack even though it is a named bonus twice?


Edit: Looked around to see it does indeed stack. Thank you for the push in the right direction.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 11:55:01 AM by DraconicDon »