Author Topic: Character advice - secondary scout, party face  (Read 2939 times)

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Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

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Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« on: March 21, 2011, 04:38:29 PM »
Hey, all,

So, I'm tentatively looking at joining up with a new campaign, for the first time in a while.  I don't know too much about the campaign as of yet (and before I officially join, I'm going to sit down and watch them for part of a session, so I can get a feel for the game).  However, according to the DM, it has a good mix of intrigue and combat, and traverses a lot of different terrain.  Right now they're in the middle of a campaign arc that is pretty wilderness and survival focused, which will probably continue to be the case for four or five more sessions, depending on how long various encounters take.

He said that in-combat, he couldn't think of any glaring weaknesses with the party, but they sometimes had issues out of combat.  The rogue who does all of their scouting and trapfinding is apparently quite good at finding and disabling traps, but less good at keeping himself alive while doing so.  Also, apparently the cleric is the only character with Charisma worth a damn or anything close to resembling social skills.

Anyhow, my thought was to play a knowledge-monkey style character, preferably with a healthy dose of social skills, that could also assist the party rogue somehow in scouting.  I don't plan to worry so much about actually finding and disabling magic traps, but if I can focus on being an extra set of (possibly magical?) eyes and ears, and assist him in other ways, that would be fine.

Also, I have no idea what tier game this is, or how much they focus on optimization.  I'd like a character that can, with a few minor tweaks, fit into any style of game - if it turns out they're a well-oiled machine, I don't want to bog them down, but if they could use some work, I'd like to support them without outshining them.  After all, I'm the outsider here!

I'll be going in at level 3, possibly level 4, depending on where they are in the game.  Most 3.5 books are OK, but nothing setting specific or third party, and nothing Exalted/Vile.  He hasn't gotten back to me yet on point buy.

I played an Archivist in my last campaign, so I don't want to go that route again, and I don't think I really feel like playing a Cloistered Cleric, Beguiler, or Factotum - the other obvious choices.  In my head, I have a character concept that is heavily fey-influenced, vaguely magical without being a full caster, and focused on knowledge and maybe divination to help aid in scouting without stepping on the rogue's toes.  I also want a very charismatic character.

Anyhow, I think I have it narrowed down to two potential characters.  I'd love any advice on builds for these, or suggestions as to which I should go with.

1.  The Bard

CONCEPT: Human, Bardic Sage variant from UA (one extra spell known at each level, and bonus to Bardic Knowledge, but requires some Int for casting and music only lasts 3 rounds after the song ends).  Having an Intelligence of 16 is good for a skill-monkey anyhow, so it's an easy trade-off.  Possibly even single-classed for my whole career.  Focuses on divination and buffing almost exclusively - combats will mostly aid, sing, and buff.  Also takes on general utility, and heavy diplomacy.  Judicious use of charming outside of battle to bring in extra allies during combat.

BUILD: Starting as Human, Bardic Sage 4.  Continuing in sage levels for whole career, with the following feat progression:

1- Melodic Casting, Lingering Song
3- Obtain Familiar
6- Ability Focus (Suggestion)
9- Improved Familiar
12- Captivating Melody
15- Disguise Spell
18- Ability Focus (Mass Suggestion)

Would love a Quasit familiar, but if that's a little too evil for the campaign, a Pseudodragon is always fun for Blindsense and Telepathy.

THOUGHTS/CONCERNS: It's a clean build and I like the idea a lot.  My only problem is that its main ways of being really effective and not a fifth wheel (diplomacy, UMD, and out-of-combat enchantment to bring in extra allies during a game) are pretty campaign and DM-dependent.

2.  The Archer

CONCEPT: An archer/scout, still a big knowledge monkey, who uses Knowledge Devotion and some minor buffs to stay relevant in combat, and focuses on skills and minor divination out of combat.  Possibly also uses bardic music.  Definitely still a solid Charisma, but perhaps not as focused as the first build.

BUILD:  Start as Human, Bard 1/Ranger 3.  Eventual goal is Ranger 9/Bard 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 9.  (Will have to learn druidic before level 11, but that shouldn't be too hard for a charismatic sort who can sort of pass as a druid anyhow).  Feat progression would be...

1- Point Blank Shot, Able Learner
2- Track (R)
3- Rapid Shot (R), Knowledge Devotion
4- Endurance (R)
6- Precise Shot
8- Manyshot (R)
9- Melodic Casting
12- Practiced Spellcaster (Bard)
15- Improved Precise Shot
18- Woodland Archer

THOUGHTS/CONCERNS: This one could actually be a lot of fun - one point shy of full BAB, 6+Int skills for my entire career, full Ranger casting (nothing to write home about, but some solid archery buffs in there, plus Commune With Nature to fill the divination flavor), and some bardic casting and music tossed in for good measure.  That being said, I have absolutely no idea how I would break down the character's stats, and skills strike me as being trouble-some.  Fochlucan Lyrist has a lot of hefty skill requirements, which would barely leave anything left over for the knowledges plus scouting/diplomacy skills for the whole first part of my career even with all those skill points.  So if I go with this build, thoughts on where to go with point buy and how to make the skills reasonable would be much appreciated...

Thanks in advance!

Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 01:58:15 PM »
Actually, thinking about it, a third option would be to go Chameleon.  Ranger 3/Bard 2 or Ranger 4/Bard 1 would be a fine entry-way into the class.  I could more or less keep the feat progression from the Archer going toward Fochlucan Lyrist, except dropping Melodic Casting and Practiced Spellcaster (although Melodic Casting is still neat - I do like the idea of Perform over Concentration thematically).

Any thoughts on which of three directions to go, and advice on any of the builds?

vilenatas

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 02:35:01 PM »
I would go with chameleon.  Dip cloistered cleric only (something like you started down this route due to your thirst for knowledge but realized that your wanderlust wasn't going to allow you to spend so much time locked away in a cloister) to get knowledge devotion for free, turning ability to fire up DMM persist on your chameleon side and some domains before going into your bardic sage or whatever else you might choose.

Nymph's kiss while exalted seems to possibly fit your character concept, so you might ask about just that if you think it actually really complements your concept well.

nightshade

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 02:53:16 PM »
It seems that the chameleon would suffer from MAD.( you'd need con, dex, int, wis and cha  :( )
I think I'd probably go straight Bard into Sublime Chord and take a level of Marshal to further increase the effectiveness of the party.

Another option would be Rogue1/Sorcerer x/Unseen Seer
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 03:03:46 PM by nightshade »

Andion Isurand

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 06:26:00 PM »
You could try to get the Darkstalker feat on you and your familiar (if any) if you plan on scouting.

Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2011, 01:57:38 AM »
If I went Bard/Sublime Chord instead of straight Bard, would you suggest changing up the feats?  I would probably try to fit in Extend Spell if nothing else, but I'm not sure what else I would change.  (Obviously AF(Mass Suggestion) would have to go if nothing else...)

nightshade

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 12:00:59 PM »
If I went Bard/Sublime Chord instead of straight Bard, would you suggest changing up the feats?  I would probably try to fit in Extend Spell if nothing else, but I'm not sure what else I would change.  (Obviously AF(Mass Suggestion) would have to go if nothing else...)

Consider Bard 8/Marshal 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso rest and take a look at silverbrow human (dragon magic) and dragonfire inspiration (dragon magic) and the Bardic Knack variant (PHBII, you will be a skillmonkey alone with this). Also take look at song of the heart (ECS) and words of creation (BoED). With the inspirational boost spell, a badge of valor(MIC), dragonfire inspiration and song of the heart you and your allies, including your familiar will be doing 4d6 more damage with every attack.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 12:02:32 PM by nightshade »

Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2011, 12:06:20 PM »
Also take look at song of the heart (ECS) and words of creation (BoED).

Sadly, no Exalted allowed in this game, which is also why Nymph's Kiss is out.  Song of the Heart is a maybe, since it's from an Eberron book but it isn't really Eberron-specific.  I'd have to check.

I actually think I want to keep my Bardic Knowledge, rather than trading it out for Bardic Knack - especially since if I've only got 8-10 levels in bard, then Bardic Knack isn't going to actually be all that useful.  I suppose I could ask if classes that advance Bardic Knowledge could also advance Bardic Knack, but it would be up to the DM... (does Virtuoso advance Knowledge?  I don't recall it doing so, but I also don't have the books with me at work).  But I actually like the flavor of Bardic Knowledge for this character, even if it's sort of a silly and inconsequential ability.

nightshade

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2011, 12:29:29 PM »
Also take look at song of the heart (ECS) and words of creation (BoED).

Sdoes Virtuoso advance Knowledge?  I don't recall it doing so, but I also don't have the books with me at work

sadly it doesn't but virtuoso and sublime chord greatly help in terms of effectiveness at later levels.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 12:33:25 PM by nightshade »

Unbeliever

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2011, 03:20:52 PM »
All good suggestions.  I don't love the Fochlucan Lyrist one, but perhaps that's b/c I've given it less thought.  I think if I were going to go that route I'd want something more caster-y, if only for better, by which I mean more regular or integral, archery buffs.

I want to second dragonfire inspiration if it's available.  First, it's pretty damn effective, even w/out Words of Creation or anything.  We use it in a fairly regular game here w/out WoC, and it's quite powerful, unless the party is all god wizards or something.  Second, to me, it really sells the idea of a fey concept.  It's more mystical and elemental than the usual Inspire Courage.  And, hopefully your DM will let you have things like Song of the Heart and/or Haunting Melody.  There's no reason not to. 

Actually, a lot of the bard stuff sells the fey-inspired concept, e.g., charming, suggestion.  My other suggestion would be to drop the bardic sage and just play a straight bard.  I don't really see what it's getting you, and I think the songs would be a very good thing for this character.  That being said, we might just be talking about the difference of 5 rounds after singing vs. 3, and w/ harmonizing weapons, lingering song, and what have you, the difference may be immaterial.  To me, the sage variant fits better w/ a Sublime Chord or other heavy casting bard.

I might be mushing your ideas together, but there's certainly nothing wrong w/ the bard archer, especially w/ dragonfire backing it up.  With UMD you can nab wands of the sweet ranger archery buffs, and you can also grab an awesome familiar.  Depending on how fey-oriented you want to go, ask the DM about Charming the Arrow.  It kind of doesn't really matter much -- your Dex will be pretty good probably as it is -- but you can always throw it out there.

P.S.:  it just occurred to me how fun and nasty charming, etc. opponents while you have your buffing songs going is.  Not only do they switch sides, but now they are buffed, too. 

Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2011, 03:54:50 PM »
My other suggestion would be to drop the bardic sage and just play a straight bard.  I don't really see what it's getting you, and I think the songs would be a very good thing for this character.  That being said, we might just be talking about the difference of 5 rounds after singing vs. 3, and w/ harmonizing weapons, lingering song, and what have you, the difference may be immaterial.  To me, the sage variant fits better w/ a Sublime Chord or other heavy casting bard.

The reason I was thinking bardic sage over standard bard is that, to me, an extra spell known at each level (plus access to some decent spells I would otherwise miss, like Arcane Sight, True Seeing, and Contact Other Plane) is certainly worth a poor Reflex save.  Since I'd be taking Lingering Song, and was planning on having a decent intelligence regardless, that's really all I'd be giving up.

I'll definitely ask about Song of the Heart/Haunting Melody, though!

JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2011, 11:30:10 AM »
before I saw the bard and archer in the OP, I was thinking .... "This is going to be a thread about binders....."

... guess not, my vote is for the bard out of the two :)
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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2011, 11:39:51 AM »
before I saw the bard and archer in the OP, I was thinking .... "This is going to be a thread about binders....."

... guess not, my vote is for the bard out of the two :)

Me too. I was going to say play a Binder.
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Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2011, 02:06:27 PM »
Yeah, I... err... never actually read Tome of Magic?  For some reason I just can't bring myself to.  Call it a hang-up.  I've heard there are many perfectly reasonable and well-crafted options there, but every time I think about picking up or even borrowing a copy, I tend to internally sigh and think, "do I really want to read through this now?"

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2011, 05:08:54 PM »
Binders are really nice from a flexibility standpoint. And they fit the goal you described quite well.

Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

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Re: Character advice - secondary scout, party face
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2011, 02:43:12 PM »
OK, well, the session I sat in with was interesting, but the rogue died one too many times.  Since I'm coming in and agreed to handle traps for him, he's putting together a new character, and is thinking of doing a shifter ranger, using the ACFs from Race of the Wild.  (I also pointed out to him the Arcane Hunter option from Complete Mage, which he seems to really like).

The party is level 4, and as follows:
1.  Human Cleric.  Tends to cast Sanctuary at the beginning of combat, then runs around casting minor buffs and occasionally healing.  Worships some goddess of love that I've never heard of, maybe unique to this campaign?  I meant to ask him about it, but forgot.  Domains are Luck and Protection.  He plays his character as pretty much a pacifist, but really rabidly anti-undead.  Current party face, seems to be OK in the Diplomacy department.

2.  Dwarven Barbarian (Possibly dipped into Fighter?  Didn't see his Char sheet, but he definitely had both Power Attack and Improved Grapple, and I'm not sure how he'd do that by level 4 without some way of getting bonus feats).  Big axe, rage, Power Attack, you know the drill.  Obsessed with bears and wants to go Bear Warrior.

3.  Dead elven rogue.  Honestly, he was a decent character, but it's only level 4 and he has already died twice, both times while playing the trap monkey.  In combat, though, I thought he was more effective than the barbarian in a lot of ways (the barbarian tended to just go after whoever was closest, while the rogue opened all three combat encounters by throwing a tanglefoot bag at the biggest monster he could see, and was pretty good at tumbling around and picking his targets well).  In this particular instance, a crappy Fort save on a needle trap paralyzed him, and a gnoll finished the job.

4.  Human Dragonfire Adept.  Almost exclusively used his breath weapon in every combat, his invocations mostly got used out of combat.  I believe his invocations are See the Unseen and Draconic Knowledge.

So, no rogue anymore, and the only decent caster wants to almost exclusively buff.  Not a bad party per se, but not terribly overpowered, either.  The Cleric actually seems to be pretty decent, and has a clear idea of where he wants his character to go.  The barbarian may not be playing the most nuanced character, but he seems to have limitless hit points and dishes out above-average damage for this level.  Not really sure where the DFA is planning on going with his character, but being that statwise he's mostly focused on Con and Dex, I'm guessing he's more interested in continuing with breath weapons and doesn't really care about his invocations.

Anyhow, caster plus trapfinder made me think of Beguiler, of course, but I also wouldn't mind tossing in some battlefield control as well.  So, I was thinking of doing the following:

LEVEL 4: Human, Beguiler 1/Wizard (Conjurer) 3, banning Enchantment and Evocation.  Fighter feat Wizard variant.

FEATS: Able Learner, Sculpt Spell, Improved Initiative, Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler)

Eventual goal: Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10.  If it gets past level 15, I'll worry about that then.  For feats, I definitely want to shoot for Improved Familiar at level 9, and I'll probably also try to pick up Darkstalker, Cloudy Conjuration, and a couple of other metamagic feats.