Author Topic: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.  (Read 22052 times)

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juton

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #120 on: March 27, 2011, 10:07:43 PM »
Multiply consumables by 10, per one shot rules. Unless you are seriously tellingme you think an average perty drinks 50 potions a day, every single day.

I've never heard of this rule, could you provide me a cite?

NeverGetDrunkButStaySober

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #121 on: March 28, 2011, 01:22:53 AM »
Multiply consumables by 10, per one shot rules. Unless you are seriously tellingme you think an average perty drinks 50 potions a day, every single day.

I've never heard of this rule, could you provide me a cite?
It's concocted out of thin air - Kaelik never mentioned it prior to that very post you're replying to.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #122 on: March 28, 2011, 01:28:26 AM »
The DMG 199 recommendation for one-shot random dungeons (that is, ones made via the rules on page 77) is
-5x normal price for single-use items
-charged items have a fifth as many charges.


For long-running campaigns, there's an intentional discrepancy between your expected WBL and that wealth you've been awarded up to that point, which is expected to be spent on consumables.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #123 on: March 28, 2011, 01:32:53 AM »
Multiply consumables by 10, per one shot rules. Unless you are seriously tellingme you think an average perty drinks 50 potions a day, every single day.

I've never heard of this rule, could you provide me a cite?
It's concocted out of thin air - Kaelik never mentioned it prior to that very post you're replying to.
This is basically what's happened through most of this thread.
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juton

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #124 on: March 28, 2011, 01:51:55 AM »
I flipped through the DMG, there is a rule that potions cost 5x as much and wands have 1/5th as many charges. But you know what, I think it's a bullshit rule, it nerfs the ever loving fuck out of melee classes. I'm not going to rewrite my characters, maybe someone else will come along with a party that Kaelik doesn't nitpick apart but I doubt it. He's made me look the fool for spending the time to write those characters, as slap-dash as they are, for a game he probably has not intent on ever running, I hope I'm the only one here fool enough to waste the time.

Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #125 on: March 28, 2011, 02:31:51 AM »
5x as much instead of 10x, my bad.

Seriously. It's four encounters. If you actually need 12 potions per encounter, then you can't even make back your own wealth.

It doesn't nerf melee characters, it nerfs people who rely on consumables an absurd amount. You are facing four encounter s total. Do you think any party ever has used two potions of obscuring mist per encounter for their entire adventuring career? Then why do you need that many?

The one shot rules exist to account for the increased power of consumables. Just like if you were making an actual party for an actual game, you would not have spent 75% of your WBL on potions, so that you could burn 12 per encounter.

It's not nitpicking you apart to ask you to follow the rules for one shots in a one shot.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 02:49:20 AM by Kaelik »

ninjarabbit

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #126 on: March 28, 2011, 03:05:12 AM »
It doesn't nerf melee characters, it nerfs people who rely on consumables an absurd amount.

Which is pretty much every character who isn't a full spellcaster

Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #127 on: March 28, 2011, 03:49:15 AM »
It doesn't nerf melee characters, it nerfs people who rely on consumables an absurd amount.

Which is pretty much every character who isn't a full spellcaster

No... I have made many non Spellcasters. None of them needed 12 potions per encounter. Ever. For any reason.

dark_samuari

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #128 on: March 28, 2011, 06:08:17 AM »
Kaelik, are you planning too purely run each party through only combat-based encounters? You might find everyone going easier on stock piling consumables and such if you opened up your challenge to simply recreate a very short (but unpredictable) dungeon crawl. Traps and movement based challenges could also gauge a party's relative strength.

But this merely an idea.   

Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #129 on: March 28, 2011, 04:46:59 PM »
So just to be clear, I should just write this off and stop actually visiting this forum because no one was doing it to begin with, and now, because some guy got upset about not getting to use 12 potions per encounter, and told everyone that I'm secretly not willing to run it based on the fact that I asked him to use the one shot rules for consumables for a one shot, now anyone who might have done it will not do it.

Is that roughly the state of things?

If this is the case, instead of just reusing the four encounters I had rolled up on the next group to finish, I could just post them, and then leave you people to argue about it.

Bester

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #130 on: March 28, 2011, 06:26:57 PM »
So just to be clear, I should just write this off and stop actually visiting this forum because no one was doing it to begin with, and now, because some guy got upset about not getting to use 12 potions per encounter, and told everyone that I'm secretly not willing to run it based on the fact that I asked him to use the one shot rules for consumables for a one shot, now anyone who might have done it will not do it.

Juton being surprised was a natural reaction to the way the situation was handled.  He was working on the vanilla party and you shot him down on potions seemingly from nowhere.  You mistakenly said 10x cost making it even harder to find out where you were coming from and then the posts came in quick succession either agreeing or disagreeing with your position.

Is that roughly the state of things?

No, you are justified in using the DMG one shot rules, but don't expect people to be psychic and know that you are using them.  Even if you state that you are, and someone messes up, just point it out again politely and ask them to reintroduce their item list.

If this is the case, instead of just reusing the four encounters I had rolled up on the next group to finish, I could just post them, and then leave you people to argue about it.

Don't alienate yourself like that.  The frustration from the community that you are experiencing is due to a lack of communication on both sides.  Juton is understandably upset because he went through the time to make a party of 4 and you blew up his item list.  Players tend to get upset when these things happen.  I think that you need to ultimately refine your ban and rules lists to reflect the way this test is going to be run.  From the original post, I had the impression that you were going to try to prove that mundanes can be useful and that magics aren't always required.  So far, all your alternate rules indicate that you favor magics.  This is odd to say the least.

Basically, you should keep going without making things so confrontational.  Stop being emotionally involved yourself, but don't expect the same from the test subjects.  Being polite to the test subjects also helps.  This is step one to making this an actual test in game design.

TheEndIsNear

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #131 on: March 28, 2011, 11:08:06 PM »
So just to be clear, I should just write this off and stop actually visiting this forum because no one was doing it to begin with, and now, because some guy got upset about not getting to use 12 potions per encounter, and told everyone that I'm secretly not willing to run it based on the fact that I asked him to use the one shot rules for consumables for a one shot, now anyone who might have done it will not do it.

Juton being surprised was a natural reaction to the way the situation was handled.  He was working on the vanilla party and you shot him down on potions seemingly from nowhere.  You mistakenly said 10x cost making it even harder to find out where you were coming from and then the posts came in quick succession either agreeing or disagreeing with your position.

Is that roughly the state of things?

No, you are justified in using the DMG one shot rules, but don't expect people to be psychic and know that you are using them.  Even if you state that you are, and someone messes up, just point it out again politely and ask them to reintroduce their item list.

If this is the case, instead of just reusing the four encounters I had rolled up on the next group to finish, I could just post them, and then leave you people to argue about it.

Don't alienate yourself like that.  The frustration from the community that you are experiencing is due to a lack of communication on both sides.  Juton is understandably upset because he went through the time to make a party of 4 and you blew up his item list.  Players tend to get upset when these things happen.  I think that you need to ultimately refine your ban and rules lists to reflect the way this test is going to be run.  From the original post, I had the impression that you were going to try to prove that mundanes can be useful and that magics aren't always required.  So far, all your alternate rules indicate that you favor magics.  This is odd to say the least.

Basically, you should keep going without making things so confrontational.  Stop being emotionally involved yourself, but don't expect the same from the test subjects.  Being polite to the test subjects also helps.  This is step one to making this an actual test in game design.

TL;DR: quit being an asshole. That way people will pay attention to you. People reacted negatively to you because you acted like an asshole first. This may or may not have been intentionnal.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #132 on: March 28, 2011, 11:12:48 PM »
Err... TheEndIsNear...

You may want to respell 'intentional,' because apparently a single misspelled word means you are ignorant, illiterate, and unworthy of attention.
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #133 on: March 28, 2011, 11:16:15 PM »
Ok a party of four binder/ardents that use bloodlines to have really high EBL / ML

The tactic is to spam zercyl and each will have a 9th level power from a mantle

So party level around 10 - 12 after I crunch some numbers
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #134 on: March 28, 2011, 11:17:52 PM »
How about a level 1 wizard? Feel free to cobble together some CR 50 critters for me to take out, Kaelic.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #135 on: March 28, 2011, 11:22:40 PM »
Fair enough, BG has decided to revert to form, and be a bunch of mind numbingly stupid assholes because they are apparently allergic to testing any of their assumptions at all.

Goodbye again, until I stay away long enough to forget that you guys are all fucking retarded.

Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #136 on: March 28, 2011, 11:30:14 PM »
Don't alienate yourself like that.  The frustration from the community that you are experiencing is due to a lack of communication on both sides.  Juton is understandably upset because he went through the time to make a party of 4 and you blew up his item list.  Players tend to get upset when these things happen.  I think that you need to ultimately refine your ban and rules lists to reflect the way this test is going to be run.  From the original post, I had the impression that you were going to try to prove that mundanes can be useful and that magics aren't always required.  So far, all your alternate rules indicate that you favor magics.  This is odd to say the least.

Basically, you should keep going without making things so confrontational.  Stop being emotionally involved yourself, but don't expect the same from the test subjects.  Being polite to the test subjects also helps.  This is step one to making this an actual test in game design.

You misunderstand. I was here for the sole purpose of doing this one thing. BG has made it very clear that they are not actually going to do what I spelled out in my first post, and are instead just going to attempt to arbitrarily break the game in any way I haven't specifically banned, and also in ways that I have specifically banned.

They are not interested in testing their assumptions about Wizards being too good for their CR. Fine, whatever. I'm not going to waste my time on people who think 50 potions a day is average, and complain about being nerfed to a mere 20. Nor do I want to deal with people who absolutely refuse to build any character that follows the guidelines I have stated. BG wants to be the ass end of the internet, where everybody just knows things to be true, and doesn't actually have any evidence, I'm not going to waste my time.

oslecamo

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #137 on: March 28, 2011, 11:45:42 PM »
This is too good of an idea to let die, and at least one party seems ready to roll.

I'm offering myself to run the monster side.

I don't mind consumable spam for a first wave. This is suposed to be a test exercise, and tests must be performed under diferent conditions. If everything goes well, we can try the one-shot rules later.

Mind you, I don't have enough time for actual dungeon crawls, so I'll do a true arena. Closed map, you start in one border, monsters start in other, the only buffs you have pre-hand is something you could keep up all day long. This includes walking around sneaking, so you can start hiding in the arena (monsters will probably do so as well).

So you may have 50 potions, but you'll have to drink them while under direct enemy assault.

Sounds good for all of you?

Kaelik: Hope you don't mind me taking it from here. I think this test could be very helpfull for a lot of people, and I'm willing to ignore the disruptive parts of the discussion for the test's sake.

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #138 on: March 28, 2011, 11:53:02 PM »
I've been kicking around some ideas for the monster's side as well, just out of curiosity, so if you want to do some actual dungeons then maybe I can get the time to do some co-dming or something.

oslecamo

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #139 on: March 28, 2011, 11:55:49 PM »
I've been kicking around some ideas for the monster's side as well, just out of curiosity, so if you want to do some actual dungeons then maybe I can get the time to do some co-dming or something.

Some options:
-You do one party's dungeon, I do the other.
-We alternate combats.
-We each bring a CR 7 ecounter and combine them for a CR 9 ecounter. You run your monster, I run mine as if we were a party.