Author Topic: A Mighty Leader Of Armies  (Read 5847 times)

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Rejakor

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A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« on: March 18, 2011, 08:45:50 AM »
So, i've been asked to help playtest this game.

As part of that, I need to design a level 7 warlord, and, presumably, his level X cohort, and, presumably, his army.

My first thought was Bard/Marshal, stacking stupid Cha, maybe trying to add a bit of Str for Might Makes Right.

However, 1st or 2nd level followers can be used as Bards to motivate the troops... with an alphorn it might be worth it to make my cohort a bard and have him just words of creation'd inspire courage with a horn for everyone on my side to get +8 to hit or so.  However basic bards in each unit give +4 to hit with words of creation, so, it should be alright if I want to go with something else.

The system vaguely breaks down with Solo units of one man... they can take out whole medium units with a ranged weapon and some luck.

I'm also interested in LA+0 races from those allowed books/other 3.5 splats which could have advantages as soldiers or provide useful abilities.

Currently i'm looking at;

Wizard2/Warlock1/Eldritch Theurge 4 - CL 6th wizard, with flight, and a 250' ranged weapon.  Protection From Arrows, Fireball, and Eldritch Spearblast.

Archer Build - Pew Pew!

Wizard 7 on a Pegasus.

For the Cohort;

Something that kills single characters well?

Artificer with cost reduction feats?


Options i'm looking at;

Dragonfire Inspiration

Undead Leadership

Of Interest;

Ways to crank up my leadership score with minimal investment.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 10:04:20 AM by Rejakor »

Gattack

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2011, 09:53:10 PM »
You want a colossal leadership score? Okay, I've got a trick me and Shinken worked out on GiantITP, but I hope you've got a good helmet.

Get Dragon 310. Make sure you have a VERY good helmet.

Here's the level seven build I'd do:
Any race with a Cha bonus, bigger the better. What I'd, personally, do would be Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey Primordial Half-giant. At LA 1 your Cha is around +8. Your physical stats don't matter.
1) LA
2) Martial Monk 1: Level: Educated, Bonus: Epic Leadership, if flaws are allowed, get Improved Leadership and anything else you want.
3) Martial Monk 2: Legendary Commander
4) Cha caster 1: Level: Ecclesiarch
5) Cha caster 2
6) Cha Caster 3
7) Cha Caster 4 Level: Assemble the Hoard!(Dr346)

at level 9, you'll want Fanatical Devotion(Dr346), and you'll pro'lly want Eye fro Talent (Dr346) Practiced Spellcaster. If you need explanation, ask.

Rejakor

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2011, 10:30:21 PM »
Pretty sure using Martial Monk to pick up Epic Leadership would be disallowed.

Cause, well, Dragon, and, it's stupid.


Unfortunately, Primordial would probably make Might Makes Right a bad choice.

FYI - Half Giant got a racial class.  0 levels in it gives Giant type with no LA.  So that combo can be pulled off LA+0.

Ras F

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2011, 02:04:06 AM »
I'm unclear as to how damaging breath weapons are resolved. I thought that Dragonfire Adepts would probably be potent as an arcane unit, though I can't figure out if that's a viable option within these constraints. Perhaps you might consider Varags for melee units if you don't have something better in mind.

I don't even know if this will be of any use or not, but...

Templates for use with non-classed units.
[spoiler]Anarchic Creature: LA+5, CR+0(For Creatures of 1-3HD, more if higher) - Planar p.108
Axiomatic Creature: LA+4, CR+0(For Creatures of 1-3HD, more if higher) - Planar p.111
Celestial Creature: LA+2, CR+0(For Creatures of 1-3HD, more if higher) - MM p.31
Fiendish Creature: LA+2, CR+0(For Creatures of 1-3HD, more if higher) - MM p.108
Pseudonatural Creature: LA -, CR+0(For Creatures of 1-3HD, more if higher) - CArc p.160
Revived Fossil: LA -, CR based on base creatures HD (CR1@1HD) - LM p.118
Skeleton: LA -, CR based on base creatures HD (CR1@3HD) - MM p.225
Zombie: LA -, CR based on base creatures HD (CR1@4HD[Troglodytes?]) - MM p.265
Amphibious: LA+0, CR+0 - Storm p.136
Magebred: LA -, CR+0 - EbCS p.295
Spellwarped: LA+3, CR+0(For Creatures of 1-3HD, more if higher) - MM3, p.162[/spoiler]

The Mounts From Beyond Mars
[spoiler]
Magebred Axiomatic Spellwarped Pseudonatural Heavy Horse
Large Outsider (Augmented Animal, Extraplanar)
HD 3d8+15 (28)
Speed 60 ft. (12 squares)
Init: +3
AC 19; touch 12; flat-footed 16
(+3 Dex, -1 Size, +7 Natural)
BAB +2; Grp +13
Attack Hoof +8 Melee (1d6+7), Smite Chaos +8 Melee (1d6+10)
Full-Attack 2 Hooves +8 Melee (1d6+7) OR Smite Chaos +8 Melee (1d6+10)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Smite chaos, true strike
Special Qualities Excellent learner, low-light vision, scent, swift breed, darkvision 60 ft., resistance to acid 5, resistance to cold 5, resistance to electricity 5, resistance to fire 5, resistance to sonic 5, spell resistance 14, linked minds, spell absorption, alternate form
Saves Fort +8 Ref +6 Will +2
Abilities Str 24, Dex 17, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills Jump +19, Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats Alertness, Endurance, Run
Environment Lawful Temperate Plains
Organization Domesticated
Challenge Rating 1
Alignment Always Lawful, usually Evil[/spoiler]
The attack bonus might actually be only +2, but I can't find justification for any of the existing horses spontaneously having a -6 misc. attack modifier ???
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 11:21:47 PM by Ras F »
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Gattack

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2011, 02:21:19 AM »
Pretty sure using Martial Monk to pick up Epic Leadership would be disallowed.

Cause, well, Dragon, and, it's stupid.


Unfortunately, Primordial would probably make Might Makes Right a bad choice.

FYI - Half Giant got a racial class.  0 levels in it gives Giant type with no LA.  So that combo can be pulled off LA+0.
It does? I didn't notice.

Also, I cannot see a reason why it'd be disallowed, unless Dragon is banned. It works by RAW. Not gonna deny, it is stupid beyond all belief, but it's legal.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2011, 02:27:50 AM »
FYI - Half Giant got a racial class.  0 levels in it gives Giant type with no LA.  So that combo can be pulled off LA+0.

How do you take 0 levels in a class?
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Widow

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2011, 03:47:45 AM »
Hmm, the Warchief PrC from the Minatures handbook could be interesting.  Easy requirements, +3 BAB and led a tribe in combat.  If nothing else you could take it on level 4 or 5 before you qualify for most other PrC's.

The standard thrallherd build could also work.

Scrollreader

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2011, 06:16:17 PM »
Iirc (away from books, atm) doesn't incarnate construct set your type to giant?  So something like half fey or phrenic on a primordial giant incarnate warforged is la +0.

Ras F

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2011, 06:26:59 PM »
It depends on your size what it turns you into.
Life gives you lemons? Then you better fucking learn Citromancy.

JaronK

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2011, 06:35:55 PM »
2) Martial Monk 1: Level: Educated, Bonus: Epic Leadership, if flaws are allowed, get Improved Leadership and anything else you want.
3) Martial Monk 2: Legendary Commander

Martial Monk gives Fighter Bonus Feats.  None of those are Fighter bonus feats.

JaronK

Amechra

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2011, 07:59:46 PM »
So, how do I get into this action?

I've got great plans for my army groups...
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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Rejakor

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2011, 08:05:57 PM »
@ BI:  With racial classes you start out as a race and can take levels in a racial class to get the various goodies your race normally gives you.  Half Giant racial class starts out as a Giant but doesn't get Stomp or Powerful Build and gets those with 1 level of a racial class (simulating LA +1 but you can take it later if you are starting at level 1).

Thrallherd et al - I get like 1000 men to start with (5 units warriors, 1 unit casters, 1 unit healers).  And leadership for free... Thrallherd might be nice, but it would negate leadership.  If I wanted to use my guys as ninja assassins/sacrifices then thrallherd might be an idea.

The mount from beyond mars is an amusing idea.  But I think my followers have to be humanoid, and otherwise, I would need to get weird templates or whatever in some other way.  Note that they are CR based not level based, though.  CR 1 humanoids.  So NPC class level 2, works even.


If people haven't been clicking the link, there's some houserules involved etc.  Essentially it's a 3.5 based game about mass combat where you play the leader of an army.  I don't want my class features to give me an army.  I want to build the best LEADER for the army I ALREADY have.

So that's why I was looking at bard/marshall et al, but the bard/marshall role is almost covered better by followers than by the Level 7 PC.  For my 'leader' i'm thinking of a blend of leadership feats and wizard 7, at the moment, to give army-murderin' utility and a large number of useful followers.

Also thinking a warblade might be an idea, using white raven, although I don't know how well white raven scales to mass formations.


Also looking for ideas as to what to make my soldiers.


Amechra:  The guy pm'd me after he lost a playtester or two, so he might still have a spot.

Otherwise, the Moldavian Defence League is always looking for new minions tactical analysts.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2011, 08:10:10 PM »
Take a level in warblade with White Raven Tactics.

Make a large portion of your army also take a level in warblade with White Raven Tactics.

You give one follower a turn, which he uses as he likes, then uses his swift action to grant another follower a turn, which he uses as he likes, then uses his swift action to grant another follower a turn...etc. That way every person in your army ends up taking 2 turns a round, minimum.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2011, 08:18:14 PM »
I was thinking of having the wizardy army have Cooperative spell, along with some other nice metamagic.

Potential Build Stub:
Human Cleric 1
Domains: Planning and Death Domain (subbed out for that good ol' 1 round Unholy Weapon)
Feats: Cooperative Spell, Travel Devotion.

I think that is possible, and will be highly mobile...
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Generic_PC

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2011, 08:21:13 PM »
The problem with Warblades in this case is that it appears (correct me if my skim of the rules was incorrect) that a group of soldiers is considered one unit, so WRT isn't used on each unit seperately (which is also a lot of bookkeeping...) but on a group.

White Raven maneuvers are probably worth looking into, however. Leading the Charge, for instance, is a 1st level stance that will give any allies who can hear you a +4 to damage assuming you take only a single level of Crusader or Warblade.

Throw an Admiral's Bicorne on that and you have a good sized radius for your voice alone.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 10:38:41 PM by Generic_PC »
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Rejakor

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2011, 09:27:26 PM »
Isn't the Admiral's Bicorne really expensive?  Don't have stormwrack on me, sorry.

I'm thinking of having some Crusaders or Warblades just hanging about as Solo units to give various stance or WRT related buffs to the larger, more important units.

Co-operative spell only works with spells they can cast... so they could go for like a really hard to resist Doom or something, I guess (they're level 1).  Also i'm pretty sure if a unit casts a spell, they all have to cast it sort of thing.  Not just one person.  So it's like cooperative but without the bonuses.

Also, everyone seems to have lots of ideas of how to outfit my guys, but no ideas as to what I should make my Leader.   :P

Ras F

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2011, 10:34:16 PM »
Yeah, sorry about that, I'm not a very good builder of leaders. -_-'
Yes, the Admiral's Bicorne is wildly expensive for your level, coming in at 51k.

I wasn't sure how mounted units work, but apparently you are allowed to have them somehow so I just threw out some ponies that amused me.

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The Gob Squad or: the Things that Don't go "Bump" in the Night
[spoiler]
Anarchic Spellwarped Pseudonatural Varag
Medium Outsider (Augmented Humanoid, Goblinoid, Extraplanar)
HD 3d8+9 (22)
Speed 60 ft. (12 squares)
Init: +7
AC 21; touch 13; flat-footed 18
(+3 Armor, +3 Dex, +5 Natural)
BAB +2; Grp +6
Attack Mwk. Scimitar +7 Melee (1d6+6 18-20/x2), Smite Law +7 Melee (1d6+9 18-20/x2)
Full-Attack Mwk. Scimitar +7 Melee (1d6+6 18-20/x2)OR Smite Law +7 Melee (1d6+9 18-20/x2)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Smite law, true strike
Special Qualities Scent, darkvision 60 ft., resistance to acid 5, resistance to cold 5, resistance to electricity 5, resistance to fire 5, resistance to sonic 5, spell resistance 14, spell absorption, alternate form
Saves Fort +4 Ref +6 Will +1
Abilities Str 19, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills Jump +19, Listen +0, Move Silently +14 Spot +0, Survival +4 when tracking by scent
Feats Improved Initiative, Run, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Environment Chaotic above or underground
Challenge Rating 1
Alignment Chaotic Evil
Possessions: Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds, Masterwork Scimitar, Masterwork Studded Leather Armor

A varag may always choose to take 10 on Move Silently checks even while distracted or threatened.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 04:36:20 AM by Ras F »
Life gives you lemons? Then you better fucking learn Citromancy.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2011, 10:43:48 PM »
All that really jumps out at me is a bard/crusader/warblade, focused on Inspire Courage optimization and with masterwork lambeg drums.

What about that exemplar build that makes everyone who sees him jump really high fanatically loyal? There's nothing that says 'I win the battle' by jumping for joy and turning the opposing army into your minions.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Gattack

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2011, 11:21:00 PM »
2) Martial Monk 1: Level: Educated, Bonus: Epic Leadership, if flaws are allowed, get Improved Leadership and anything else you want.
3) Martial Monk 2: Legendary Commander

Martial Monk gives Fighter Bonus Feats.  None of those are Fighter bonus feats.

JaronK
You haven't looked at the ELH in a while, have you?
A little off topic, but I'm annoyed that I haven't had a chance to play a binder in a while. After what you told me they sound really fun,

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: A Mighty Leader Of Armies
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2011, 11:58:56 PM »
2) Martial Monk 1: Level: Educated, Bonus: Epic Leadership, if flaws are allowed, get Improved Leadership and anything else you want.
3) Martial Monk 2: Legendary Commander

Martial Monk gives Fighter Bonus Feats.  None of those are Fighter bonus feats.

JaronK
You haven't looked at the ELH in a while, have you?
A little off topic, but I'm annoyed that I haven't had a chance to play a binder in a while. After what you told me they sound really fun,
That's the list of epic fighter bonus feats, not the list of fighter bonus feats.
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