Author Topic: What SHOULD be banned?  (Read 23160 times)

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Necrosnoop110

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What SHOULD be banned?
« on: March 17, 2011, 01:54:44 AM »
I hear lots of tables ban this, that, and the other thing in the sake of balance and fairness. Examples include global bans, such as no Dragon Magazine, or nothing but the "core books" or no Savage Species. Examples also include specific bans, such as no Thought Bottles, or no stacking night sticks, or no Persistent Spell.

My thoughts are that very little should be outright banned and most things can be houseruled into play with a little adjusting.

So let me ask you this what are the most broken, outrageous, things in 3.0/3.5 D&D that SHOULD be banned for the sake of fair play and balanced game? (A top ten list or something to that effect would be cool)

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2011, 02:26:14 AM »
For me I have the biggest problem with any trump card type abilities that achieve an overwhelmingly effective result for extremely minimal investment, but banning them is the easy way out.

I'll use Mindsight as an example. It's so stupid good that you'd be stupid not to get if you have the option. "You'd be stupid not to get it" usually means it's too good or that your other options are just too horrible. Mindsight is definitely the former.

However banning it is too easy, especially when I have nothing wrong with the flavor of it. I just can't stand how 1.) it's insanely easy to get and b.) if you CAN get it you absolutely SHOULD get it and there really isn't an argument against.

So maybe get some more prereqs going. Something simple like 6 HD.

The real work has to be done on how it functions. I don't mind telepathic creatures seeing minds, but the idea that they just get it for free automatically at all times is fucking retarded. It seems to me like scanning an area for brain waves should be at least mildly taxing. So a simple nerf like making it take a full round action to use Mindsight.

It's still an excellent ability, but it's not the fucked up bullshit trump card to quite the same extent.
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veekie

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2011, 09:44:42 AM »
Hmm, these would fall into quite a few categories I think.
Outright broken - Not playable, as in, REALLY not playable. Not much falls in here but for infinite loops and anything that gives something for nothing.

Too much possibilities - Shapechange, PAO, Planar Binding, Wish, Shadow <foo>, Rainbow Warsnakes. Not outright broken, but rather they can do anything and everything. Which is a pain for a DM to have to deal with AND a pain for the player to play true to form.

Rocket Tag - If I could fix this without changing the game entirely....this is all stuff which puts it all down to one roll or ludicrous modifiers for the level. Ubercharging can fall here, though most ToB stuff doesn't really.

Too Good/Bad for the level - level inappropriate abilities. Generally covers spells and stuff that regularly outperform 90% of similar level effects. Lots of eyeballing to determine what is the norm for the level though.

Hello and goodbye Action Economy - Extra Actions. That is all. A lesser subclass might be allowed for Limited extra actions, which let you perform something highly specific(quickened magic is not highly specific, but given the cost, is usually ok until you can spam it or if you can combine it with one of the other bad cases)

Campaign breaker - Teleports, 'True' Divinations, stuff that basically shreds campaign premises. These depend on the game, but it can be so easy to bypass the whole adventure.
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RobbyPants

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2011, 10:04:49 AM »
I've never had a hard ban list.  I used to "soft ban" stuff from books I didn't own, but I would let people suggest stuff if they let me review it and promised to bring the text to each session.  I once tried to create a list of acceptable PrCs for flavor reasons, but I gave up on that half way through the campaign.  I've never banned stuff for power reasons, but I've also never ran games for people who knew how to break the game.  I'd usually have to do things like talk the druid's player out of multiclassing.

Also, to add to Veekie's list:
Doesn't work as written: A lot of stuff like Diplomacy, Craft, Hide, and Ride-by Attack just don't do what they're supposed to if you actually play by the rules.  A lot of people house-rule them without knowing they're doing it, because the actual rules are so fucking retarded. 

On a related note charms and illusions can vary based on effectiveness based on the DM.  This isn't so much of a banning issue, but more of an issue that the DM may be house-ruling things without realizing it.
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veekie

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2011, 10:39:56 AM »
Well, Doesn't Work As Written is more a case of needing to add than subtract.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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RobbyPants

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2011, 02:13:34 PM »
Well, Doesn't Work As Written is more a case of needing to add than subtract.
Generally.  Although it is a lot easier to tell people that we're playing Dungeons & Dragons, and not Basket Weavers & Bakers when they try to use the Craft skill.  Diplomacy is kind of mixed.  It wouldn't be too hard to fix, but good luck finding a fix that Mister Cavern will accept if it fucks with his plot.

Hide is commonly used enough that it genuinely should be fixed.  Ride-by Attack is fixed simply by having the charge rules make sense again.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2011, 06:49:06 PM »
Automatically banned:
-Infinite loops of any kind.
-Damn tought bottles.
-Incantrix, Planar Sheperd.

Nerfed:
-Diplomacy.

Clarified:
-Mindsight is stopped by anything that stops mind-affecting, since Lords of Madness mentions mind flayers being unable to use mind sight for finding undead.
-"Familiar" is defined on the scrying rules, and it implies better contact than just meeting the subject.
-Infinite knowledge. Just because you have a lot of ranks on Knowledge doesn't mean you're automatically ominiscient about everything in the campaign world.

Hide is commonly used enough that it genuinely should be fixed.

I believe we already covered that Hide does work as intended. You don't need shaddows to hide. Just cover, wich is plentyfull everywhere. And how's it suposed to be. If you want to disapear in the middle of the airinstead of hiding, you'll need something more than a basic skill.

Whisper

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2011, 07:59:12 PM »
D&D

 :beathorse

... but if you will insist on not playing less broken game, one might try:

Wish/Alter Reality/Miracle/etc
Anything that does ability drain or damage, or level drain, without a save
Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange/Wild Shape/etc
Any PC race with a level adjustment

Bozwevial

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2011, 09:50:27 PM »
I believe we already covered that Hide does work as intended. You don't need shaddows to hide. Just cover, wich is plentyfull everywhere. And how's it suposed to be. If you want to disapear in the middle of the airinstead of hiding, you'll need something more than a basic skill.
I dunno about that. What about sneaking up behind someone? How do you handle that in a game which assumes 360 degree facing?

oslecamo

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2011, 10:43:59 PM »
What about sneaking up behind someone? How do you handle that in a game which assumes 360 degree facing?

What do you mean about "sneaking up behind someone"? If you mean going out of cover for a backstab, that's called the suprise round for you knowing your enemy's position before moving out for the kill, wich leaves your oponent flat footed.

If you mean crazy ninja-fu where you glue yourself to your oponent's back for hours, well, by all means pick crazy ninja-fu class/feat.

There's also a skill trick that does exactly that.

Bozwevial

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2011, 11:43:36 PM »
It is entirely possible to hide without having an intervening object handy within 30 feet. The problem is that D&D assumes that you can see equally well in all directions at once, because otherwise you get into all the added complexity of UA's facing rules. Hide in Plain Sight should do just that--allow you to attempt a Hide check while you're being observed--but it shouldn't be a requirement to sneak up behind someone.

For clarification: Timmy the rogue wants to pick a pocket. He makes his checks as normal to slip up behind a nobleman without being noticed, without needing a convenient trash can or cardboard box every 30 feet. If he gets spotted by the guard and wants to escape during the ensuing brawl, he can either run and get into cover or, if he has Hide in Plain Sight, make the checks at a penalty without it.

Yes, I know that it's not terribly realistic to say that someone can just sneak up on you in the middle of a desert, but it totally is. If they're good enough (in other words, make the relevant checks), someone can follow you around in broad daylight for half a mile with no cover and without you knowing they're there. It happens all the time. Except that doesn't work in D&D, because everyone is assumed to be looking in all directions at once, so the moment you step out from behind a wall even the half-blind old man leading the party's pack mule can see you. And that's just silly, honestly--rogues shouldn't need special treatment to use one of their most iconic skills.

Kajhera

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2011, 11:56:20 PM »
Might this be a circumstance to apply Move Silently?

Bozwevial

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2011, 12:02:19 AM »
Well, yes and no, because there are a lot of other little factors that play into things. Keeping your shadow out of sight as well, not kicking up dust clouds or knocking a pebble ahead of you...it turns into both, really, which is why I'm in favor of rolling the two stealth skills into one. If it's really important to determine exactly how someone found you, either go with what makes more sense (if there's no way they can see you, they probably heard you) or flip a coin or something, it doesn't really matter. There aren't a lot of cases where that becomes important, or at least there haven't been in games I've run.

Necrosnoop110

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2011, 12:10:49 AM »
someone can follow you around in broad daylight for half a mile with no cover and without you knowing they're there. It happens all the time.
Don't take me wrong as I believe you have much merit in your arguments for hiding in the D&D world but when where and how does this happen all the time in the real world? (now you got me paranoid :D)

Bozwevial

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2011, 12:18:19 AM »
Don't take me wrong as I believe you have much merit in your arguments for hiding in the D&D world but when where and how does this happen all the time in the real world? (now you got me paranoid :D)
Well, probably not for half a mile. :p But imagine this, just as an example: You've got a street somewhere, doesn't matter where, you're standing there and you spot your friend coming out of a shop a little up the way. She starts heading away from you, and you decide to have a bit of fun, so you start quietly walking after her. This lasts for a while until you walk up behind her and grab her, making her jump and spill her drink.

Or you could ask the man standing right behind you right now--but don't turn around, 'cause he hates that.

Midnight_v

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2011, 06:15:59 AM »
Talking about hide... is like kindling. It could be written better though, cause its doesn't work out the box...
 

  I have a suggestion. Has anyone ever tried to ban the core books? Or how about all classes in the core at least? Thats what should be banned. As well as any monster than emulates full caster status, like those ethergaunts and the 6 armed guys who's name I can never remember.
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Echoes

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2011, 07:31:49 AM »
Bozwevial hit the nail on the head. Roll Hide and Move Silently into Stealth, roll Listen and Spot into Perception, and just give Hide in Plain Sight as a benefit of having ranks (4+ maybe, whatever) in Stealth. That way, training to be Stealthy actually makes you better at hiding not just numerically (which is supremely boring) but practically, because you know how to sneak up on people.

And yeah, you can totally just sneak up on people in real life without any cover whatsoever, because real life has facing. Without facing, that's just an opposed Stealth vs. Perception check, because that's easy to do.

As to banned material, I personally ban very little. As a rule:
  • (Lesser/Greater) Celerity/synchronicity/anticipatory strike: This falls under the "if it's available, you must take it!" category - everyone without loses hard.
  • Polymorph/polymorph any object/shapechange: These go because A) they're a bookkeeping nightmare, and B) they offer entirely too much for how available they are. Note: Alter self gets to stay, because it is far less abusive, though still ridiculously good.
  • Thought bottle: Actually, all this needs is to have the "Store Experience" use removed and it's fine.
  • Infinite loops: Most of these can be solved by changing wish. I personally use Frank & K's revised wish rules, which both make the spell more usable for everyday things and less loop-happy at once.

Other than that, I pretty much don't care or I'll tweak things to make them work. With the wish economy and planar currency, most of the "broken stuff" actually doesn't matter, because having infinite amounts of money doesn't translate to infinite amounts of real power. This also removes the incentive to rip the gold off of every wall in El Dorado, allowing you to have actual fantastic locations and not have to worry about what will happen if the PCs strip it to the bone.
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RobbyPants

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2011, 10:36:15 AM »
What about sneaking up behind someone? How do you handle that in a game which assumes 360 degree facing?

What do you mean about "sneaking up behind someone"?
Easy.  You hide behind your tower shield!

You use it as cover, so you can hide, and if you succeed on your check, you and all of your stuff are hidden, including... wait for it...




your tower shield!  :smirk


Fucking 3.5 Hide.  :rollseyes
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RealMarkP

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2011, 10:51:48 AM »
It sounds like there needs to be a compendium of fixes for these things....

Pathfinder was on the right path (ha, I'm punny) with it's changes and it's generally regarded as 3.75e.

Kajhera

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Re: What SHOULD be banned?
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2011, 11:00:05 AM »
What about sneaking up behind someone? How do you handle that in a game which assumes 360 degree facing?

What do you mean about "sneaking up behind someone"?
Easy.  You hide behind your tower shield!

You use it as cover, so you can hide, and if you succeed on your check, you and all of your stuff are hidden, including... wait for it...




your tower shield!  :smirk


Fucking 3.5 Hide.  :rollseyes

Yesterday one of my players, playing a troll, ripped a door from its hinges, used it as an improvised (and nonproficient) tower shield, and hid the rogue behind it as he advanced up the stairs blocking the arrows of the foes.  :)

It ... it was cool.  :p