Author Topic: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation  (Read 34767 times)

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snakeman830

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2011, 08:49:23 PM »
Psions just have a couple of unique abilities (find a single wizard spell that lets you time travel, even if it's only in one direction/one round).
Teleport through Time. :p
I stand corrected.  Psions have no unique abilities :p
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bananaphone

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2011, 08:53:25 PM »
Just pointing out that I agree that you were mistreated in the whole situation, I just gave the other side of the coin.

That said, even though you're hurt (and that really is obvious by the tone of your.....posts?) maybe you're limiting your options. You dont have to like the DM (although it does seem like you're actually hurt because you do like him and the comments were harsh and somewhat unexpected?), the more important question is... Are you having fun while gaming? If the answer is yes, then screw the DM, adapt to his whining (thats not being a little soldier, consider it a compromise) and keep having fun with your fellow gamers!

If not, well maybe leaving is really the best course of action because , in the end, we all group together to have fun  :D.

Btw, if it helps, i'm pretty sure that most of the people on these boards are considered powergamers in their groups  :lol, the 2nd DM in my group made it clear i'm forbidden to ever again play a druid in his campaigns  :P. And all it really took was an animal growthed bite of the werebeared dire tortoise....

Agree, agree, agree.
There may be another option. 
Try filling the DM's chair yourself for a campaign or two.  Demonstrate that the DM role is one of a facilitator and not an adversarial one.  Lend assistance to your fellow players in building their characters.  When the players are having fun, they will remember.  When it's their turn to sit in the DM's chair, they will be more likely to be open-minded.

I did this exact thing, and when it came around for someone else to DM they kept a lot of the same rules I had in place and overall were more player-friendly.

Saeomon

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2011, 09:02:59 PM »
Just pointing out that I agree that you were mistreated in the whole situation, I just gave the other side of the coin.

Fair enough. :) I'll attend the next few sessions, take more of a back-seat role, and see how things go. My character's Chaotic Neutral so I can play it off by saying she's enjoying the view, contemplating the uncontemplatable, or admiring the drapery. Still contribute, but tone it down even further. If I get a positive response, or no response at all, I'll take it as an indication that my DM is appeased.

Agree, agree, agree.
There may be another option. 
Try filling the DM's chair yourself for a campaign or two.  Demonstrate that the DM role is one of a facilitator and not an adversarial one.  Lend assistance to your fellow players in building their characters.  When the players are having fun, they will remember.  When it's their turn to sit in the DM's chair, they will be more likely to be open-minded.

I did this exact thing, and when it came around for someone else to DM they kept a lot of the same rules I had in place and overall were more player-friendly.

Definitely a good idea, and one I'll work towards implementing.

Gods_Trick

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2011, 09:23:17 PM »

Perhaps its my vindictive streak, but appeasing someone who insulted you .... well you're a tougher gamer than I am Saeomon. Hopefully the situation improves for you.

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2011, 09:30:19 PM »
We had this same problem in my group and everybody taking a turn DMing was the solution.  Once you see how other people run games, you can take what works and what doesn't and incorporate it into your own "way of DM."

Write up a "we all dm now" proposal and hand it to everyone at the table.  If the current dm's story is directionless as you say, this is perfect.  Everyone can run games based on the different leads the current dm has given out.

Also, a group of 6 is really what is causing all this strife.  We have 7 player/dms in my gang and when 1 misses a game, not much changes.  When 2 can't make a game, the game takes off.  Unfortunately, it is just not worth it for us to kick anyone out.

We follow the guild model, where-in we are members of a guild who are searching for a multi-piece macguffin that we always seem to forget about (most DM plots only tack it on the end).  This makes it easy to follow rule 1:  you cannot play or give your character anything when you are dm.  They stay in the guild hall.

If a player/dm can't do what they need in a single session, they can take as much time as they need.  We even change seats mid-session.

Also, Dexter's Laboratory did a cartoon on this.  DeeDee was the dm and the players loved her way more than Dexter.

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2011, 09:36:32 PM »
DMing yourself is a great idea, except it sounds like the current DM will take it as you stealing his thunder.

Try it, however, and see how it goes. Good luck.
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Drull

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2011, 09:39:27 PM »
Meh, "mind if I give it a go when your campaign is done" rarely fails.

Though that might take months...

Bester

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2011, 09:52:38 PM »
DMing yourself is a great idea, except it sounds like the current DM will take it as you stealing his thunder.

Try it, however, and see how it goes. Good luck.
I don't think that this will be the case.  I think when DMs start banning things that only seem powerful, they are starting to burn out.  There is more evidence in the fact that the group is 6 players(edit 7 players).  It is difficult to run a group that size.
The current dm should be more receptive if everyone gets a chance to DM and not just the person they perceive as a problem player.  They literally have nothing to lose, not even thunder.  Sharing infinite power is not that difficult.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 10:24:39 PM by Bester »

geniussavant

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2011, 10:11:05 PM »
I had this problem in my last real world campaign, and I solved it by doing something that seams really backwards at first glance, here's what I did:

First, I took over DMing for a short campaign, to A give him a break, and B allow him to be a player. Then I asked the entire group to BREAK the campaign using no infinite loops and only those things that he had concerns with(his happened to be psionic action abuse, binding, and ToB.) By allowing him to see how hard it is to break a campaign, and how I prevented the campaign from shattering right off the bat(AMF/ null magic zones, among other things) It allowed him to see what it looks like when someone is really trying to break a campaign, and not just creating a versatile character. After the campaign, It was like a magic wand had been waived over my DM, he became more open to my play style(which from the sounds of it is similar to yours) and relaxed his paranoia a bit and allowed different 'magic' systems in his campaigns, as long as the basics were taught to him by the player who wanted to use it.

I don't know if it will help your situation, but it's another option for you... Hope it helps
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Janthkin

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2011, 11:22:30 PM »
I'm going to start by doing something unfair: I'm going to pick on a single sentence from all of the text Saeomon has shared.
And one final note: my DM really seems to think that making a character without a glaringly obvious weakness for the DM to exploit is "abusive." My DM does not seem to believe that it is 100% the responsibility of the DM to present a challenge to the PCs.
I call this out because I'm firmly of the belief that the players have at least as much responsibility for the campaign as the DM.  It's NOT 100% the responsibility of the DM to do anything, really.  But the DM does have the burden of facilitating the game, which generally means being responsible for showing EVERY player at the table where the fun is. 

I've run into this with my own groups fairly recently, from both sides of the DM screen.  It's not necessarily that your DM wants your character to have a glaringly obvious weakness; it's probably that he's having a hard time coming up with a scenario that is reasonably challenging to your PC, while not absolutely destroying less-optimal (or less-optimally-played) PCs.  Probably he's also having trouble in constructing situations where OTHER characters have their "time to shine," because you've crafted your character to be able to do a bit of everything. 

And yes, probably he's not a creative as you might like, if he's relying on locked doors for the rogue to open as being their "spotlight moment."

The solution begins with communication.  You've apparently been to law school, so you should be able to put your thoughts and feelings into a coherent AND constructive argument; just remember that non-lawyers don't have the same formal training in argument, and may have a harder time distinguishing constructive criticism from personal attacks.  Explain that you are detecting a significant difference in play-style between how he's running the current game, and how you constructed your character; offer just a couple of the less-confrontational examples.  Note that your character has had a lot of the spotlight, as a result of how you structured him.  Explain, further, that you feel you've hit a wall with character development because of these differences.  Then offer to either retire the character, in favor of one better suited for the campaign as a whole, or to help him see what sort of mechanical challenges ARE a threat to your character, without automatically destroying the "Wastes of Space" in the party*. 

And yes, DM'ing yourself for a while might be to everyone's benefit.

*By the way, even using that term is pejorative to your argument, at least to me.  For most players of my acquaintance, D&D is just something fun to do with other people; I certainly don't expect everyone to find their fun in exactly the same way I do.  If, as is common, I'm the most CO-savvy player in the group, the challenge then becomes HELPING the DM, through my own character design and role-play, to help the other characters shine.

Saeomon

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2011, 01:54:26 AM »
I'm going to start by doing something unfair: I'm going to pick on a single sentence from all of the text Saeomon has shared.
And one final note: my DM really seems to think that making a character without a glaringly obvious weakness for the DM to exploit is "abusive." My DM does not seem to believe that it is 100% the responsibility of the DM to present a challenge to the PCs.
I call this out because I'm firmly of the belief that the players have at least as much responsibility for the campaign as the DM.  It's NOT 100% the responsibility of the DM to do anything, really.  But the DM does have the burden of facilitating the game, which generally means being responsible for showing EVERY player at the table where the fun is. 

I've run into this with my own groups fairly recently, from both sides of the DM screen.  It's not necessarily that your DM wants your character to have a glaringly obvious weakness; it's probably that he's having a hard time coming up with a scenario that is reasonably challenging to your PC, while not absolutely destroying less-optimal (or less-optimally-played) PCs.  Probably he's also having trouble in constructing situations where OTHER characters have their "time to shine," because you've crafted your character to be able to do a bit of everything. 

And yes, probably he's not a creative as you might like, if he's relying on locked doors for the rogue to open as being their "spotlight moment."

The solution begins with communication.  You've apparently been to law school, so you should be able to put your thoughts and feelings into a coherent AND constructive argument; just remember that non-lawyers don't have the same formal training in argument, and may have a harder time distinguishing constructive criticism from personal attacks.  Explain that you are detecting a significant difference in play-style between how he's running the current game, and how you constructed your character; offer just a couple of the less-confrontational examples.  Note that your character has had a lot of the spotlight, as a result of how you structured him.  Explain, further, that you feel you've hit a wall with character development because of these differences.  Then offer to either retire the character, in favor of one better suited for the campaign as a whole, or to help him see what sort of mechanical challenges ARE a threat to your character, without automatically destroying the "Wastes of Space" in the party*. 

And yes, DM'ing yourself for a while might be to everyone's benefit.

*By the way, even using that term is pejorative to your argument, at least to me.  For most players of my acquaintance, D&D is just something fun to do with other people; I certainly don't expect everyone to find their fun in exactly the same way I do.  If, as is common, I'm the most CO-savvy player in the group, the challenge then becomes HELPING the DM, through my own character design and role-play, to help the other characters shine.

More fair criticism of the views I've expressed. What's more, I find myself agreeing with you. :) When I really do think about it, yeah players do share in the responsibility. I don't know if it's 50%/50%, but that doesn't really matter. Players really do need to contribute, too, and I do believe that everyone in my group is trying to do that.

I'll further mull over what you've written. I'm not sure that approaching the DM for a conversation would go all that well at this point. The DM seems to be set in doing things a certain way, period, and I can't change how they act. I can only change how I act. In that regard, your other piece of advice, that I look for ways to make the other characters shine in their roles, is something I'll take to heart. It's the least I can do.

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2011, 02:02:07 AM »
As he doesn't like you removing the door...how is he about breaking the door with Mountain Hammer?
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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2011, 02:05:41 AM »
As he doesn't like you removing the door...how is he about breaking the door with Mountain Hammer?
Or just a big hammer period? Play a barbarian.
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geniussavant

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2011, 02:19:30 AM »
As he doesn't like you removing the door...how is he about breaking the door with Mountain Hammer?
Or just a big hammer period? Play a barbarian.
Better start with commoner, and bash the door in with your chickens, or a pig...  :smirk
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Saeomon

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2011, 02:28:04 AM »
My DM is Core-centric. So, if I restart as anything in Core it'll likely be Bard. No better way to show you don't mean to hog the spotlight than to play the class intended to be the epitome of "support."

Plus, I enjoy belting out anachronistic song lyrics mid-game.

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2011, 02:33:13 AM »
As he doesn't like you removing the door...how is he about breaking the door with Mountain Hammer?
Or just a big hammer period? Play a barbarian.

Using shrink item to bypass locked doors would probably be the closest Core-equivalent to time hoping them. I wonder what his opinions on that would be.
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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2011, 02:35:11 AM »
My DM is Core-centric. So, if I restart as anything in Core it'll likely be Bard. No better way to show you don't mean to hog the spotlight than to play the class intended to be the epitome of "support."

Plus, I enjoy belting out anachronistic song lyrics mid-game.
Grant the entire party +10d6 fire damage? On every attack! Sure!

Really, check out the bard guide and boost your Inspire Courage to outrageous levels. Go! Do it!
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Gattack

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2011, 07:26:42 AM »
My DM is Core-centric. So, if I restart as anything in Core it'll likely be Bard. No better way to show you don't mean to hog the spotlight than to play the class intended to be the epitome of "support."

Plus, I enjoy belting out anachronistic song lyrics mid-game.
Grant the entire party +10d6 fire damage? On every attack! Sure!

Really, check out the bard guide and boost your Inspire Courage to outrageous levels. Go! Do it!
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Saeomon

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2011, 03:44:13 PM »
Sent my DM the following email:

Quote
I'm coming to you with a proposal in the spirit of reconciliation. Even though I didn't intend it, the choices I've made with [my character] have led to a power imbalance in the game. Or at least a perceived power imbalance. Either way, that's not good, since it's hindering your enjoyment of the game.

Therefore I propose revising [my character's] power list, dropping those powers which have been most balance-wrecking. Those powers I see as having interfered most greatly with the balance of the game are the following:

Crystalstorm - Constitution damage is quite strong for a level 2 power
Time Hop - we've both know how many applications this power has, by its wording

Those are the biggest offenders, in my book. I believe they also have the greatest potential to remain long-term offenders.

In lieu of Crystalstorm, how about I give her Mass Missive? It's a pure utility power. And instead of Time Hop, how about Dispel Psionics? I still don't know if it'll work on magical effects, but whatever. If it does, it's a way of focusing on helping other party members. If you don't care for either of those powers, or think they're in any way more game-breaking than the ones I already have, I'll happily take other ones instead.

I also propose removing her one level in the Anarchic Initiate PrC. The PrC adds to her power level and she was already quite strong as a single-classed Psion. That level will be replaced with another level of Psion.

For the future, unless you're okay with it, I'll plan on keeping her as a single-classed Psion. There's only one other PrC which I'd really consider at this point: the Constructor. I did talk with you about that one and you said it would be okay. If that's no longer true then that's cool. The PrC would cause her to lose two manifester levels, whereas the Anarchic Initiate does not, so there is a real trade-off there. It would also refocus her on primarily being a Construct summoner. Whether or not that option remains open is entirely up to you. I'm cool with having her be a single-classed Psion. There are a few skill points that I invested into Knowledge (The Planes) simply to meet the prerequisites for Anarchic Initiate. If I could place them, instead, into my Craft skills, I'd appreciate it.

I know there's the possibility that you'll say that it's fine for me to keep her as she is. But I'm not asking what's "fine." I'm really trying to get at what you would prefer, as the DM of this game. I like [my character] and I've had fun playing her. My fun is impacting, at a minimum, your fun, though, and I don't like that. So please tell me what you prefer. Also, if there are other changes that you'd prefer to see made, please tell me what those are.

Also, if you'd consider any of the following powers to be balance-breaking, let me know. They comprise the short list of powers I was considering taking at levels 7-8. I know I only get 4 and there's more than 4 on this list. I just hadn't made up my mind, yet, so I figured I'd list them all.

Divination
Fabricate, Psionic
Dimension Door, Psionic
Wall of Ectoplasm
Correspond
Telekinetic Maneuver

So that's the sum of my proposal. To reiterate, I've made this proposal in hopes of working things out and making the campaign better for everyone. No more, no less.

Got the following reply:

Quote
What I would prefer is to not deal with this anymore.  Do whatever you want.  Take PR, redo [your character] from the bottom up, I don't care.  I'm tired of dealing with it.

This is bullshit. I'm quitting the game.

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Re: My DM Just Banned Psychic Reformation
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2011, 04:01:25 PM »
I'm usually skeptical of the actual circumstances involved in rage-quitting .... but that guy really is a dick.  How fucking inconsiderate is that to completely ignore the painstaking care and conscientiousness you poured in to that email.
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