Author Topic: [3.5] Removing the Status of Charisma as a Dump Stat (using action points)  (Read 2296 times)

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OneWinged4ngel

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« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 07:12:47 PM by OneWinged4ngel »

Mister_Sinister

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A good idea, OW4. I believe that another way would be the 'choice of two stats to saves' that 4e implemented. Basically, you can add either your Str or Con to Fort saves, either Dex or Int to Ref saves, and either Wis or Cha to Will saves. This is a small bump, but many small bumps may contribute to making a big change, after all.

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OneWinged4ngel

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A good idea, OW4. I believe that another way would be the 'choice of two stats to saves' that 4e implemented.
 

I kinda dislike this because it adds an either-or dichotomy sort of mindset.  "Pick whichever one you like more and dump the other," as it were.  Wouldn't be as strong in 3e as it is in 4e in this respect, simply because of the way 3e is set up, but... eh.  It kinda just makes people feel worse when they take two stats on the same pair, like an Eladrin.

Mister_Sinister

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Admittedly, yes, but it does (in 3e, were it to be there) mean that Cha is less of a dump stat, even in a very minor way. While it does create the dichotomy mindset you claim, the fact that they also work with other, different, things, dumping one of them may simply not be an option. Furthermore, if we make more stats 'dumpable', as it were, isn't that solving the problem of Cha being a dump stat? Essentially, if everything is dumpable, then Cha is no worse.

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OneWinged4ngel

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While it does create the dichotomy mindset you claim, the fact that they also work with other, different, things, dumping one of them may simply not be an option.

Only example of this I can think of off the top of my head would be Favored Soul (IIRC).  Maaaybe a cleric or Paladin (Pally needs to have a min-wis, Cleric might want more turns for turn feats).  Everything else, you only want Wisdom OR Charisma.  And I never use the Favored Soul.

Essentially, this creates a world of dumb blondes vs ugly old sages, with a few lonely classes stuck in between.

By contrast, action points make charisma attractive to members of every class without stepping on the toes of Wisdom.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 05:37:16 AM by OneWinged4ngel »

Mister_Sinister

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Well, I was offering my idea in addition to yours, rather than as a replacement. However, you do make valid points, I concede you that.

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Eldariel

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One additional aspect that could logically help Charismatic characters in low level game is making starting gold have Charisma-bonus added to it (probably Cha Modifier*10gp). Not much impact in the long run but for the first ~3 levels it's a very tangible benefit without breaking anything in the long run. I really like the AP idea too. It makes sense and works throughout the career.

The other stat that could use help though is Str (and Wis if implementing the 4E-style saving throw system; in that case Wis is almost as weak as Cha and Str now). Str could have a few things based on it, such as a modifier to your movement speed (a guy with strong leg muscles tends to move faster than the guy with weak ones), the number of skill points you get for physical skills each level (leaving mental skills up to Int), etc. Those could even be split between Dex and Str, but Dex kicks enough ass without additional help, so if not moving stuff away from Dex, this part gets difficult.

Wisdom though I'm running low on ideas short of implementing the Sanity-system from Unearthed Arcana, which definitely doesn't fit in the more heroic games. Then again, Wis does add to your "social AC" (Sense Motive) and "stealthy AC" (Spot+Listen), so it is already fairly powerful defensively. Still, if every other stat has something derived off it, would make sense to have something derived off Wis too. Initiative could make sense, but I don't know...

Chemus

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Eldariel, Wis to initiative makes good sense. Surprise round is already Wis based anyway :D.
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Eldariel

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Yea, but I don't want to reduce Dex to "only needed for low armor chars". Although that's a fine alternative. I was also thinking of giving Int to Initiative and making skillpoints based on Wisdom. The final idea I had was splitting physical skills to Dex/Str/Con (no idea which) and mental skills to Int/Wis (depending on how it all works out).

Orion

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Re: [3.5] Removing the Status of Charisma as a Dump Stat (using action points)
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2008, 07:27:37 PM »
Can you not make Charisma less of a dump stat by simply running games that involve more interaction and Cha-based skills? I realise that's not a hard and fast "rule" thing, but still, seems to me that if players are ignoring Charisma it's because the game isn't asking them to use it. That said, it is less useful than the other stats, in general. I'm not claiming they're all perfectly balanced.