Psion Gish

[Lycanthromancer]

Didn't we just have a monk/psion thread?

Monastic Training^(eberron) + Tashalatora^(e:sos) = Psion levels stack with monk to determine everything useful the monk gets.
So, go Passive Way Monk 1 / Psion X / Shiba Protector 1 / Favorite Psionic Class Y

Passive Way Monk gives Compat Expertise for a bonus feat and your Psicrystal gives Alertness making qualification for Shiba a cakewalk.

Now, I'm a little confused on Tashalatora.  Does it stack for the CLASS levels, or the class MANIFESTING levels?

And Argenon, I appreciate, but out of all these options I AM set on Psion. Although, Psionic Abjurant Champion DOES sounds awesome. It was my favorite Arcane Gish class.

Class levels. ie, regardless of whether you're a monk 1/psion 10 or a monk 1/psion 10 with Practiced Manifester, you're still a monk 11 for the effects of the feat.

Also, this is rather feat intensive. It requires 3 feats to use effectively (including Carmendine Monk), 1 of which (Monastic Training) should've been inherent to the monk class ANYWAY.

Not to mention that the best two things the feats grant (AC and Unarmed Strike progression) can be bettered by Metamorphosis + 0 ACP armor (and you can get armor abilities as well).

Not that monk + psywar or monk + ardent can't be good. It's just that you can do better, methinks (especially at higher levels).

[edit] Swordsage'd.

[sir_argenon]

Didn't we just have a monk/psion thread?

Monastic Training^(eberron) + Tashalatora^(e:sos) = Psion levels stack with monk to determine everything useful the monk gets.
So, go Passive Way Monk 1 / Psion X / Shiba Protector 1 / Favorite Psionic Class Y

Passive Way Monk gives Compat Expertise for a bonus feat and your Psicrystal gives Alertness making qualification for Shiba a cakewalk.

Now, I'm a little confused on Tashalatora.  Does it stack for the CLASS levels, or the class MANIFESTING levels?

And Argenon, I appreciate, but out of all these options I AM set on Psion. Although, Psionic Abjurant Champion DOES sounds awesome. It was my favorite Arcane Gish class.

actually.. erudite is a psion.. just a different type of one.  you can get nearly every power that a psion can get including all of the discipline powers except for the level 9's.

[Demelain]

And Argenon, I appreciate, but out of all these options I AM set on Psion. Although, Psionic Abjurant Champion DOES sounds awesome. It was my favorite Arcane Gish class.

actually.. erudite is a psion.. just a different type of one.  you can get nearly every power that a psion can get including all of the discipline powers except for the level 9's.

Oh, you're right. And it sort of makes me wonder why anyone wouldn't pick it, except maybe worries over the DM providing access to the Psionic Discipline powers. It'll also save me a feat on Psicrystal Affinity (why the base Psion doesn't have it is a good question). But, I would lose access to Telepathy and mindsight (might be able to get that for the Psicrystal, it DOES have telepathy)

I question the value of Shiba Protector. It doesn't enhance ML, it has a BAB requirement of +5, and only medium BAB itself. Straight Psion with a monk level would make me character level 11 before I qualify, and the first level dip only nets me WIS to attack and damage rolls - which increases MAD as a Psion for any meaningful bonus. I'd be a level 12 character with BAB of +6/+1.

Also, is taking "Narrow Minded" to get access to "Ascetic Psion" worth two feats? And why does it require Narrow Minded in the first place? All other class-stacking feats only require class features, and sometimes not even that (since many of the Ascetic X feats only require Improved Unarmed Strike).

[Lycanthromancer]

Oh, you're right. And it sort of makes me wonder why anyone wouldn't pick it, except maybe worries over the DM providing access to the Psionic Discipline powers. It'll also save me a feat on Psicrystal Affinity (why the base Psion doesn't have it is a good question). But, I would lose access to Telepathy and mindsight (might be able to get that for the Psicrystal, it DOES have telepathy)

I wouldn't take it because of the wonky wording on the majority of the class, UPPD are REALLY low at low level, you can never have fewer than half your class levels in erudite if you want all the class features, and despite XP being a river you hemorrhage experience points like you got stabbed in the thigh.

I question the value of Shiba Protector. It doesn't enhance ML, it has a BAB requirement of +5, and only medium BAB itself. Straight Psion with a monk level would make me character level 11 before I qualify, and the first level dip only nets me WIS to attack and damage rolls - which increases MAD as a Psion for any meaningful bonus. I'd be a level 12 character with BAB of +6/+1.

Also, is taking "Narrow Minded" to get access to "Ascetic Psion" worth two feats? And why does it require Narrow Minded in the first place? All other class-stacking feats only require class features, and sometimes not even that (since many of the Ascetic X feats only require Improved Unarmed Strike).

I wouldn't take shiba protector as a manifester, myself, since MLs are only a bit behind CLs on the 'though shalt not lose...' paradigm.

As far as the Ascetic Psion feat, WotC really doesn't like psionics much. I don't think it's worth it.

[Demelain]

Oh, you're right. And it sort of makes me wonder why anyone wouldn't pick it, except maybe worries over the DM providing access to the Psionic Discipline powers. It'll also save me a feat on Psicrystal Affinity (why the base Psion doesn't have it is a good question). But, I would lose access to Telepathy and mindsight (might be able to get that for the Psicrystal, it DOES have telepathy)

I wouldn't take it because of the wonky wording on the majority of the class, UPPD are REALLY low at low level, you can never have fewer than half your class levels in erudite if you want all the class features, and despite XP being a river you hemorrhage experience points like you got stabbed in the thigh.

Ah, perhaps I'm interpreting it differently. I keep equating class levels to manifester levels and I know I SHOULDN'T, and that I'm in the wrong. But it still sounds attractive. Perhaps not as much, but attractive nonetheless. The Spell-to-Power variant, I feel certain, would get Psionics outright banned if I tried it, all things considered. As I said, the DM is part of the "Psionics is irreparably broken" school of thought - and showing him that they CAN be wouldn't help matters. That's one of the reasons I passed over the Ardent - the ACFs would have him in fits.

This thread has given me a lot to consider - I wasn't even aware the some of this existed before hand. Thanks to everyone who contributed, but I need sleep (and time to think - a lot of good options, and possible combinations). I've got school in the morning.
I'm particularly liking Lycanthropomancer's Psion/Ghostbreaker/Illithid Slayer/Legacy Champion. If I went Monk 1/Psion4/Anarchic Initiate 1/Illithid Slayer 4/Legacy Champion 6/Ghostbreaker 4 I would keep BAB +17/ML 17 (same as his build) and net the Monk benefits and Anarchic Initiate's free Empower. Legacy Champion can net me the level 5 Telepath bonus feat (and thus the ACF Telepathy, if I'm not mistaken). I can still grab Metamorphosis through an extra feat and a sizing reach weapon to threaten more square with the Monk's unarmed strikes and turning into a large+ creature.

[Lycanthromancer]

Lycanthropomancer

Lycanthropomancer

Lycanthropomancer

AHEM. 

Also, in your build, you don't get the slayer's capstone (which is doubly-awesome).

And do you even qualify for slayer given your BAB?

[edit] Of course, I just realized MINE doesn't get the capstone either.

Damn.

[Demelain]

Lycanthropomancer

Lycanthropomancer

Lycanthropomancer

AHEM.  

Also, in your build, you don't get the slayer's capstone (which is doubly-awesome).

And do you even qualify for slayer given your BAB?

[edit] Of course, I just realized MINE doesn't get the capstone either.

Damn.

You're right - but I can just throw a Ghostbreaker level in there for filler, like Eldritch Knight levels in an arcane build.
And you're right about Illithid Slayer, of course. How does Monk 1/Psion 4/Anarchic Initiate 1/Ghostbreaker 1/Illithid Slayer 3/Legacy Champion 6/Illithid Slayer 2(9)/Ghostbreaker 2(3) sound? I still get a lot of features from the PrCs, but I also get the free Empower and the Monk abilities, which are also useful in conjunction with Metamorphosis.
Finishing with BAB +16/ML 17. Legacy Champion could be cut - the class features may be amazing, but medium BAB hurts. It's still 2-level minimum, unless I want another Psion level to net Telepathy, and then I may just go Psion 6 since it'll progress BAB. Something to consider.
[EDIT] Dropping 4 Legacy levels and replacing them with Illithid Slayer bumps the BAB up to +17, but I lose some neat stuff.

Eh... Sorry for the mistake on your name.

[Dusk Eclipse]

As far as psionics gishes go; I am partial to the Chrono Leggionarie build... should be somewhere on th WoTC boards I think

[Lycanthromancer]

You're right - but I can just throw a Ghostbreaker level in there for filler, like Eldritch Knight levels in an arcane build.
And you're right about Illithid Slayer, of course. How does Monk 1/Psion 4/Anarchic Initiate 1/Ghostbreaker 1/Illithid Slayer 3/Legacy Champion 6/Illithid Slayer 2(9)/Ghostbreaker 2(3) sound? I still get a lot of features from the PrCs, but I also get the free Empower and the Monk abilities, which are also useful in conjunction with Metamorphosis.

Monk 1 = +0 BAB
Psion 4 = +2 BAB
Anarchic initiate = +0 BAB
Ghostbreaker = +1 BAB
BAB =/= +4.

I'd skip monk entirely and grab a monk's belt and metamorphosis, perhaps burning a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike. If you must burn a manifester level, try a 1-level dip into lion totem barbarian for pounce. Or just squeeze in a level of ghostbreaker instead of anarchic initiate, as a non-blaster gets very little out of AI.

Finishing with BAB +16/ML 17.

BAB isn't nearly as important to you as it would normally be, assuming you rely on natural attacks. For you, it's attack bonus that's important, and hitting REALLY DAMNED HARD.

Of course, if you go for Power Attack it's a bit more important, but the difference between +15 and +17 BAB is fairly small.

Legacy Champion could be cut - the class features may be amazing, but medium BAB hurts.

Why? The class features are better than the BAB, since you don't need it as much as, say, a fighter. Stick with forms that add natural attacks to your normal attack routine and you actually come out ahead in the long run.

It's still 2-level minimum, unless I want another Psion level to net Telepathy, and then I may just go Psion 6 since it'll progress BAB. Something to consider.

[EDIT] Dropping 4 Legacy levels and replacing them with Illithid Slayer bumps the BAB up to +17, but I lose some neat stuff.

Don't lose the neat stuff. Trust me. Proper power and feat selection > BAB for a manifester...even a gish.

Let's say that at level 20 you have a BAB of +14. Normally this wouldn't be that great. It grants you an attack routine of +14/+9/+4.

But you've also taken Metamorphosis and Illithid Heritage + Illithid Grapple x4. You use girallon as your current combat form. You wield a quarterstaff 2-handed (since it's a simple weapon) and get an attack routine of +14 quarterstaff/+9 bite/+9 claw/+9 claw/+9 quarterstaff/+9 tentacle/+9 tentacle/+9tentacle/+9 tentacle/+4 quarterstaff.

And you get even more if you share Metamorphosis on your psicrystal as well.

The nifty class features are MUCH better than BAB, especially since you can make touch attacks with feats and spells and such, can gain a ton of natural attacks to boost your routine, and can gain damage and accuracy in other ways as well.

BAB is overrated for someone who, as Sunic_flames puts it, is a REAL character.

Eh... Sorry for the mistake on your name.

Just don't let it happen again.

[Demelain]

You're right - but I can just throw a Ghostbreaker level in there for filler, like Eldritch Knight levels in an arcane build.
And you're right about Illithid Slayer, of course. How does Monk 1/Psion 4/Anarchic Initiate 1/Ghostbreaker 1/Illithid Slayer 3/Legacy Champion 6/Illithid Slayer 2(9)/Ghostbreaker 2(3) sound? I still get a lot of features from the PrCs, but I also get the free Empower and the Monk abilities, which are also useful in conjunction with Metamorphosis.

Monk 1 = +0 BAB
Psion 4 = +2 BAB
Anarchic initiate = +0 BAB
Ghostbreaker = +1 BAB
BAB =/= +4.

Eh, my group stacks classes with the same progression. I didn't know how it worked by default, but it just made sense to us that 2 levels in different classes, that both have medium BAB, give you the effective BAB of +1. We do the same for save progression.

But you are right - in the face of tentacles, who cares how many attacks I normally get?

I'm just... I guess I'm hung up on all of the normal facets of being a Fighter AND a Primary Manifester and not considering how they can actually complement, or replace, one another.

Can I get an expansion on natural attacks and how those work with my BAB?

[EDIT] Also, what exactly do the last four levels of Legacy Champion net me, in terms of mechanical benefits? All the talk of Legacy items is confusing and hunting through the whole book to get an idea of the power I'd lose is less efficient than just asking. Are the last four levels worth the lost class feature (and thus Manifester Level) at Legacy Champion 7?

[SorO_Lost]

I question the value of Shiba Protector.

I suggested it since the wisdom augmentation frees up the need to have strength at all, it makes you less MAD, and if your DM lets you take flaws he should have no complaint over weak will & iron will meaning you virtually qualify for free. Note, Tashalatora does stack furry of blows. Less BAB but you get two extra attacks and you can mitigate the hit chance easy enough.

Alas psionics isn't my area of study. Now if your DM let you convert an arcane PrC to psionic (like JPM/AC) that would be awesome and Kell & Cantrip would have some great ideas for you.

[Lycanthromancer]

Eh, my group stacks classes with the same progression. I didn't know how it worked by default, but it just made sense to us that 2 levels in different classes, that both have medium BAB, give you the effective BAB of +1. We do the same for save progression.

Normally you get what's on the table regardless of what came before. The table says +0? You get +0. It says +2? Get +2. You're using something akin to the alternative rule in Unearthed Arcana that stacks saves and BAB.

But you are right - in the face of tentacles, who cares how many attacks I normally get?

Tentacles are good for RP, too.

And don't forget grafts, as well.

I'm just... I guess I'm hung up on all of the normal facets of being a Fighter AND a Primary Manifester and not considering how they can actually complement, or replace, one another.

Can I get an expansion on natural attacks and how those work with my BAB?

Natural attacks are marked as either primary or secondary natural attack. You get a single attack with that weapon regardless of your BAB, or whether you get a single attack or full attack action. Primaries use your full BAB and usually use 1.5x your Strength modifier for damage, and secondaries use your full BAB -5 and use .5x your Strength modifier.

If you wield a manufactured weapon in a full attack, you get your normal attack routine with that weapon, and you can add all the natural attacks you get to that attack routine as bonus attacks, but if you do, any natural attack you use in this way is automatically considered a secondary attack.

And you can't use a natural attack with a limb holding a manufactured weapon you're attacking with that round (aside from AoOs).

If you take the Multiattack feat (from the Monster Manual or SRD) secondary attacks are made at a -2 penalty, rather than a -5.

[EDIT] Also, what exactly do the last four levels of Legacy Champion net me, in terms of mechanical benefits? All the talk of Legacy items is confusing and hunting through the whole book to get an idea of the power I'd lose is less efficient than just asking. Are the last four levels worth the lost class feature (and thus Manifester Level) at Legacy Champion 7?

7th level nets you free Greater Legacy rituals, and you gain extra uses of your legacy abilities.

Legacy abilities are reasonably powerful if you choose the right ones, and may or may not be equivalent to one lost manifester level, depending on what you're doing.

Also, MLs aren't quite as powerful as CLs are are more easily replaceable due to augmentation. But MLs are still extremely strong, so it depends on if free Greater Legacy abilities are worth it to you.

[Demelain]

I'm just... I guess I'm hung up on all of the normal facets of being a Fighter AND a Primary Manifester and not considering how they can actually complement, or replace, one another.

Can I get an expansion on natural attacks and how those work with my BAB?

Natural attacks are marked as either primary or secondary natural attack. You get a single attack with that weapon regardless of your BAB, or whether you get a single attack or full attack action. Primaries use your full BAB and usually use 1.5x your Strength modifier for damage, and secondaries use your full BAB -5 and use .5x your Strength modifier.

If you wield a manufactured weapon in a full attack, you get your normal attack routine with that weapon, and you can add all the natural attacks you get to that attack routine as bonus attacks, but if you do, any natural attack you use in this way is automatically considered a secondary attack.

And you can't use a natural attack with a limb holding a manufactured weapon you're attacking with that round (aside from AoOs).

If you take the Multiattack feat (from the Monster Manual or SRD) secondary attacks are made at a -2 penalty, rather than a -5.

I see. And do I really qualify for those? I don't have 3+ natural attacks, or a fly speed, except for when I'm using metamorphosis. I wouldn't think that would qualify, but I may be (and given my inexperience, likely am) wrong.

[Lycanthromancer]

I see. And do I really qualify for those? I don't have 3+ natural attacks, or a fly speed, except for when I'm using metamorphosis. I wouldn't think that would qualify, but I may be (and given my inexperience, likely am) wrong.

The rule of thumb is that you can take a feat for which you only sometimes qualify, but you only gain the benefits of that feat when you actually do qualify.

Thus, if you have a 12 Str and some +2 gauntlets, you can take Power Attack, but only so long as you're wearing the gauntlets. A druid may take Multiattack and use it while wild shaped. And you can use Flyby Attack whenever you have a fly speed.

Also, Magic of Incarnum is incredibly psionics-friendly. It may be worth a look.

[Demelain]

I see. And do I really qualify for those? I don't have 3+ natural attacks, or a fly speed, except for when I'm using metamorphosis. I wouldn't think that would qualify, but I may be (and given my inexperience, likely am) wrong.

The rule of thumb is that you can take a feat for which you only sometimes qualify, but you only gain the benefits of that feat when you actually do qualify.

Thus, if you have a 12 Str and some +2 gauntlets, you can take Power Attack, but only so long as you're wearing the gauntlets. A druid may take Multiattack and use it while wild shaped. And you can use Flyby Attack whenever you have a fly speed.

Also, Magic of Incarnum is incredibly psionics-friendly. It may be worth a look.

Okay, thanks. So, aside from PrC qualifying feats and Multiattack, where should my feat focus be? After Metamorphosis, will I even need help in combat from feats?

[Lycanthromancer]

I see. And do I really qualify for those? I don't have 3+ natural attacks, or a fly speed, except for when I'm using metamorphosis. I wouldn't think that would qualify, but I may be (and given my inexperience, likely am) wrong.

The rule of thumb is that you can take a feat for which you only sometimes qualify, but you only gain the benefits of that feat when you actually do qualify.

Thus, if you have a 12 Str and some +2 gauntlets, you can take Power Attack, but only so long as you're wearing the gauntlets. A druid may take Multiattack and use it while wild shaped. And you can use Flyby Attack whenever you have a fly speed.

Also, Magic of Incarnum is incredibly psionics-friendly. It may be worth a look.

Okay, thanks. So, aside from PrC qualifying feats and Multiattack, where should my feat focus be? After Metamorphosis, will I even need help in combat from feats?

Metamorphosis alone is absofrigginlutely amazing. The rest of your feats should go either where you want your focus to be, or to shore up weaknesses. This is all up to you.

MUST HAVES: I'd definitely go after Linked Power, since that's where the majority of your buffing will come into play. Add on Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, and Psionic Meditation, for psionic focuses.

SITUATIONAL, BUT STILL NICE TO HAVES: Darkstalker and Flyby Attack are nice to have, depending on your situation. Any of the spell-like ability feats are nice, since psionics are explicitly psi-like and you can use those feats with psi-like abilities.

OPTIONAL, BUT GREAT FOR THE RIGHT CHARACTER: Shape Soulmeld (and later, the psionic open chakra power) is great, depending on the soulmelds you want, and along with it goes Midnight Augmentation and Psicarnum Infusion to cheat your way into essentia.

And there're a ton of other feats, which, again, depend on what you want to do and how you want to do it.

[Demelain]

And if I were to take Metamorphic transfer (though it might be overkill), how does that function?
I'm reading it, and I'm getting two interpretations: Each form I take can use one supernatural ability 3/day, separate counts for each form. Alternatively, I can use the supernatural abilities gained from Metamorphosis a total 3/day, no matter how many different forms I take.

Thanks, again. You've all been a huge help.

[Lycanthromancer]

And if I were to take Metamorphic transfer (though it might be overkill), how does that function?
I'm reading it, and I'm getting two interpretations: Each form I take can use one supernatural ability 3/day, separate counts for each form. Alternatively, I can use the supernatural abilities gained from Metamorphosis a total 3/day, no matter how many different forms I take.

It's 3/day total. Whenever you enter a new form, if that form has a permanent or always-on ability (such as the pixie), then you can choose to leave it on as long as you're in that form, since it's constant once activated.

If it's instantaneous, then it's instantaneous, and lasts forever (or a split-second, depending).

If it's something with a shorter duration, you can activate Metamorphic Transfer while in that form and use that Su ability just like the creature can, and it lasts for its normal duration, even if it lasts past that form's duration.

That's how I use it, anyway. It's a mite unclear, really, since it doesn't go into specifics.

Thanks, again. You've all been a huge help.

S'aright.

[Demelain]

I think I'm going to go ahead and finish out Legacy Champion.  If I can get something Psionics-specific, it should more than make up for the loss of a ML and 2 Powers. And hey, if there is a power that's an absolute must-have, I can pay XP/GP/Quest for someone to do Psychic Chirurgery.

I'm also going to relent and go Egoist. I really wanted Telepath, but it's not worth waiting until level 15 to get Metamorphosis.

[Lycanthromancer]

But you've also taken Metamorphosis and Illithid Heritage + Illithid Grapple x4. You use girallon as your current combat form. You wield a quarterstaff 2-handed (since it's a simple weapon) and get an attack routine of +14 quarterstaff/+9 bite/+9 claw/+9 claw/+9 quarterstaff/+9 tentacle/+9 tentacle/+9tentacle/+9 tentacle/+4 quarterstaff.

By the way, if anyone makes a Tentacle rApe joke I'm going to be rather miffed.