Author Topic: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)  (Read 22498 times)

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Bauglir

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2011, 05:00:15 PM »
Still reading through it. I like what I see so far. Just a few copypaste issues (maneuvers are still referred to in the Impulse Mage class feature and the Spellsage recovery in the Spellshaping Powers section).

As for the spellshape attack things noted above; yeah, the elemental adept kind of gets shafted by only have access to one, particularly since the best ones that'll be the bread-and-butter of the other classes aren't on their list of options (except, perhaps, caustic spray). One idea that occurs would be restricting the Impulse Mage to only spellshape attacks for which it has formulae available, but more effective would probably be evening out the differences between them, and probably letting an elemental adept get access to more than one. Perhaps some sort of rider effect to the less-powerful ones? Although all the conceivable ones are probably covered by minor formulae (which I haven't quite gotten to yet).
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

bkdubs123

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2011, 05:27:20 PM »
1) Elemental Adept seems to be drastically weaker than the other two classes.

In what way, specifically?  The class features or the limited circle access?

Both, and Garryl has done a fine job explaining my issues with it already. I would suggest making Elemental Adept the toughest of the three classes, personally. Give it medium BAB and d10 hit dice. Start granting it immunities that Elemental creatures have as early as you possibly can. Also, granting access to all of Crushing Stone, Perfect Freeze, Searing Flame, and Shocking Current seems appropriate to me. They will still be less versatile than the other two.

Quote
Bear in mind that, with the Elemental Healing feat, an elemental adept can use turning attempts to heal his companion (and, after level ten, himself) for 1d8 per shaper level.  With the _____'s Command feats, he can also use turning attempts to cast spell-like abilities.  Maybe the _____'s Command feats should be built into the class?

Any time you use feats for a class to justify that said class is well-balanced or well-designed you're doing it wrong. I don't think those feats necessarily need to be built into the class, though. If you make the Elemental Adept the most accurate with his attacks and the toughest of the three it should balance things out.

Quote from: DonQuixote
Quote
2) Some of the spellshape attacks are strictly better than the others.

Which ones, any how much better?

Again, Garryl got to this before I did. He's done a great job explaining the disparities for you. The Elemental Adept gets, by far, the weakest of the spellshape attacks.

My suggestions: 1) Rockslam should deal MORE damage, not less, than the others because even with a +10 bonus to hit, most of the time it will be less accurate. I did notice that the Formulae for Crushing Stone tend to deal more damage than the others, but the basic attack should still deal more damage too. 2) Kinetic Blast should deal less damage, probably lower its damage dice to d4s like most force effects in 3.5 already. Force damage cannot be resisted and is really versatile. 3) Caustic Spray should become a melee touch attack that maybe deals 1d6+1 acid damage to a max of 5d6+5. Acid is rarely resisted and can melt through walls and locks, etc. 4) Withering Touch is versatile, most living creatures can't resist it, and it can heal undead allies. I want to say it's fine as is.

Quote from: DonQuixote
Quote
3) It's too bad that there isn't support for much in the way of abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, or transmutation effects. Yet, of course. Yet. ;)

While I wouldn't mind if other people decided to 'brew such effects, my base idea was really for a warlock-type blaster, rather than a complete casting overhaul.  If I were to add such effects, I suspect I would do so as class- or feat-granted spell-like abilities, rather than as formulae.  As it is, the Spellsage allows you to pick up one spell per level, and taking levels in archmage of the Tower Conclave gives you a pretty wide range of spells.

I think it would be much better to actually include magic like that as Formulae, and I'll probably work on something (I already did some spell-like disciplines for Tome of Battle a year or two back, so it shouldn't be difficult to reverse engineer). Remember, the Warlock isn't just about blasting either. It gets Flight and Invisibility and Divination and Charms and all that fun stuff.

DonQuixote

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2011, 06:45:11 PM »
These are all very good points people have been raising.  To begin, yes, it was a mistake that rockslam did less damage than the others.  A horrible, horrible mistake.

In terms of balancing spellshape attacks, what of bumping rockslam and all related formulae up to d8s (and possibly increasing the enhancement bonus on rockslam attack rolls to your full shaper level, rather than half), bumping kinetic blast and all related formulae down to d4s, and reducing Caustic Spray's range to 15 feet?

For elemental adept, I'm thinking of following the advice of bkdubs and granting it access to all four elemental circles, a medium BAB, and so on.  Possibly allowing it to summon an elemental monolith once per day at 20th level?  Another idea I was toying with was allowing elemental adepts of 12th level and higher to convert their bodies to their chosen element--not an elemental, like the elemental channeler, but actually the element.  Air adepts would transform into whirlwinds, earth adepts would transform into rolling boulders, fire adepts would transform into moving spreads of fire, and water adepts would turn into large pools of water that can...do something of which I am still not certain.  This may be too convoluted/silly, but it was a thought that I had.

Impulse mage capstone, I'm still not sure.  Maybe something from Zerth Cenobite?  Temporal Strike on a spellshape attack once per encounter would be nice.  Not sure how suitable it would be flavor-wise, though.

Thoughts?  I'll draft more specific things later tonight, once I've actually studied for that economics midterm tomorrow.  Also, my computer died this morning, so I don't have access to any sourcebooks until I get it working again.

Garryl

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2011, 08:11:32 PM »
I've been reading through the formulae. I'm half way through Perfect Freeze at the moment. Here are my initial opinions on all of them. I started with Crushing Stone, so don't expect my reviews of that circle to be quite as accurate as for the later ones.



Note: I consider 1d6/level (minimum 3d6 even at level 1) to be level-appropriate damage, single target or area. Anything with less than that better have secondary effects that improve it, especially if it's single target only. This includes the expected base damage of an effect that piggybacks on another attack, like Disintegrating Spray or most maneuvers. I tend to ignore saves for half damage unless the save DC is low for some reason or the damage is middling and single-target. And I tend not to notice when its save negates, so there's that, too. This is just a heads up so you know how to evaluate my evaluations.

Particularly Useful Formulae:
Note: I only checked CS and DC for these.
[spoiler]
Crushing Stone
6 - Fist of the Mountain
6 - Rock Tomb
8 - Pinpoint Avalanche

Deteriorating Corrosion
3 - Venomous Air
7 - Gush of Venom
7 - Vitriolic Flood
[/spoiler]


Crushing Stone review:
Note: Nothing in Crushing Stone appears to be affected by SR. While helpful, it neither makes up for its formulae's underwhelming natures, nor the fact that they require regular atatcks instead of touch attacks.
Crushing Stone's primary tricks are knocking enemies prone and making difficult terrain. There are a few good options in there, though, but the majority of its effects are unimpressive or are rendered obsolete by flight.
[spoiler]
Spellshape: Rockslam
I already outlined the issues it has compared to the other spellshapes. The ability to ignore SR is a nice touch, but SR is far less common than AC.

Animated Stone (major 1)
Deals at most 3d4 damage before crits, but it has a piddling attack bonus (serieously, half your shaping stat and your mediocre BaB? That's like +1-2 at level 1 and peaks at +17 by 20th). If it was a minor and only flanked, it would be worth thinking about. Heck, if it was exactly the same and a minor it would be worth thinking about. As a standard-action major, however, it is obsolete as soon as it's available.
Note the typos: It refers to itself as a "blade" in the second to last sentence of the first paragraph. I'm guessing you cribbed the format from Mordenkainen's Sword?

Boulder Slam (major 5)
Very average damage, but overcomes DR/hardness (equivalent to overcoming resistances). Does 8d6 when you get it (9th), but loses steam when it only goes up to 10d6 at 17th (appropriate for the way this system works).

Crushing Slam (minor 5)
Fort or prone with rockslams.

Demolishing Blow (minor 3)
Bonus damage (4d6) to objects and constructs.

Earth Tremor (major 3)
Interrupts casting and knocks prone every round. Decent BfC.

Fist of the Mountian (major 6)
If your rockslam hits, the opponent is stunned, no questions asked (unless that question is "do you have Mettle" or similar). Definitely a good formula.

Grasp of Earth (major 2)
Almost literally does nothing. In order to maintain a grapple, you have to move into the opponent's space. Since the arm can't move, it can't do that, so it can never do anything more than the 1d3+Str nonlethal damage from the unarmed atatck for winning the initial grapple check. A simple fix is to make it pull the grappled creature into its space (similar to the Improved Grab ability). Its effective grapple modifier is 2 + 4/3 shaper levels, which while unreliable, is still a threat at lower levels.

Grasp of Stone (major 4)
See Grasp of Earth, except that its grapple modifier is a whopping one point better (and it deals an extra 1d6+1 damage on a pin that will very rarely happen even if it can grapple). Its one additional round of duration helps it stay around longer, and its additional defenses mean that it's at least not dust from a single level-appropriate attack. Being stuck at medium size means that it can't even grapple huge creatures (which start showing up around now).

Monolith Slam (major 7)
See Boulder Slam, except that it doesn't scale as well with the formula level difference, so the damage is even more unimpressive.

Overwhelming Slam (minor 2)
Should have the mind-affecting and fear descriptors. The save DC is pathetic if you don't combine this with a damage-boosting major formula since the basic rockslam has unimpressive damage.

Pinpoint Avalanche (major 8)
Good damage area save or lose badly. One of the few good Crushing Stone formulae.

Precise Slam (major 1)
Good for its level, as the damage is still competitive (2d6-3d6). The Concentration check will still be slightly difficult to make at lower levels, though.

Rock Tomb (major 6)
Reflex save or lose. Good.

Seismic Pulse (major 3)
It has level-appropriate damage. That's a plus. It requires you to be on the ground. That's a negative.

Seismic Surge (major 7)
Level-appropriate damage, a teensy bit of BfC, and, unlike Seismic Pulse, does not require you to be on the ground. It's okay.

Shower of Stone (major 1)
No save, no SR, just take the damage like a man. It's very low damage, though.

Staggering Slam (major 4)
Prevents movement. (And I'm guessing it's supposed to prevent full-attacks as well, right?) The fact that it only functions on grounded targets is a negative, though, as flying and levitating creatures are the ones you'd most want to stop in their tracks.

Stone Sentinel (major 5)
Good hp and presence (huge creature), but its attack bonus is sorely lacking.

Stone Slam (major 2)
Good damage for the level (3d6-4d6) and ignores hardness and DR (equivalent to overcoming resistances). It's useful utility similar to Mountain Hammer in that its worth hanging on to if you picked it up at low levels (mostly for bashing down doors and walls) but isn't worth spending a high level formula slot on (nor its higher level equivalents, sadly). It's somewhat less useful the Mountain Hammer since you can usually just switch to another spellshape attack that uses an energy type your opponent doesn't resist.

Tooth of the Earth (major 4)
Level-appropriate damage and a save or suck. Loses relevance quickly as flying creatures become more prevalent, but the fact that it hits ones within 10 feet of the ground means you'll at least get the ones without reach.

Wrath of Stone (major 9)
So, 14d6 damage and a bit of BfC. Seems very weak for a 9th level formula.
[/spoiler]


Deteriorating Corrosion review:
Note: Deteriorating Corrosion steals some of Crushing Stone's thunder. Many of its formulae don't allow spell resistance.
Deteriorating Corrosion achieves battlefield control through debilitating debuffs (nausea, paralysis) and difficult terrain. It also has a minor in Strength damage. It has some very good debuffs and the damage isn't too bad. Not amazing, but not bad.
[spoiler]
Spellshape: Caustic Spray
A good spellshape, dealing acid damage (2nd-least resisted, full damage to objects) as a ranged touch attack.

Acrid Pool (major 2)
Difficult terrain and a bit of acid damage in a wide area. Good for low-level BfC.

Armor-Eating Acid (major 1)
-4 AC for a single enemy for 1 round. Helps your allies hit, I guess.

Biting Acid (major 3)
Bonus damage and makes criticals much easier to confirm.

Blinding Spray (major 3)
A clarification on how much fluid is needed would be helpful, otherwise it's just a save or lose your next standard action. Either way, it's nice enough.

Caustic Attrition (major 5)
Save or have less DR. Weak unless you're running around with some buddies with tons of attacks. Would be more helpful in Crushing Stone, since they can actually benefit from this.

Caustic Blood (major 4)
Save or effectively nauseated each round for 3 rounds. Good save or suck/lose.

Clinging Venom (major 1)
Extra 1d6 acid damage. The time delay is negligible since the damage is dealt before the target's actions. An appropriate 1st level formula.

Cloud of Corrosion (major 8)
4d6 damage/round and obscures sight. Not quite the bang I'd expect from an 8th level formula.

Corrosive Mantle (major 2)
Don't touch me. The whole standard action/short duration defensive self-buff makes it mediocre.

Corrosive Sludge (major 4)
Like Acrid Pool, but with more damage. The area is significantly less, though.

Debilitating Splatter (minor 5)
A good debuff to tack onto your spellshape.

Disintegrating Spray (major 6)
Holy crap, it's level-appropriate damage on a spellshape attack! 15d6 (6d6 on a save) when you get it. Good utility, too, for removing pesky walls and doors and stuff. I think this invalidates the entire Stone Slam line of Crushing Stone.

Flesh-Melting Spray (minor 5)
The name is not formatted (missing the size and bolding of other formulae's names). Adds Strength damage to your spellshapes. Not bad.

Gush of Venom (major 7)
It's official, Deteriorating Corrosion is the land of level-appropriate spellshape damage. Plus, y'know, the save or lose.

Liquefy Flesh (major 9)
Low initial damage, but deals a good amount of ability damage over the next few rounds. Takes a while to get going, though.

Macerating Spray (minor 2)
Adds Strength damage to your spellshapes. Not bad.

Nauseating Fumes (minor 4)
Adds a save or suck to your spellshapes. Especially good when combined with formulae that allow you to attack multiple opponents (like Gush of Venom).

Penetrating Vitriol (minor 6)
Ignore SR. Helpful in a pinch, but not vital.

Sickening Fumes (minor 1)
Adds a decent debuff to your spellshapes.

Venomous Air (major 3)
Area save or suck.

Vitriolic Flood (major 7)
1d6 Con damage and makes you lose a turn scraping it off if you don't want to take another 4d6 over the remaining 4 rounds. In a 15-30 foot high or lower dungeon, there's no real save as the stuff on the cieling will still drop on you anyways.
[/spoiler]


Devouring Shadow review:
Devouring Shadow does a decent variety of the debuffs normally associated with Necromancy: negative levels, ability damage, sickening/nausea, and fear. The negative levels are very weak though. It also has a minor in healing, which is okay. Some of the low-level damage formulae are decent, but there are very few gems. The rest is either average or meh. Since most of its formulae after about 3rd level don't bother trying to win with damage, there's not the usual amount of things to be unimpressed with. If its spellshape was a ranged attack like the rest, this would be a pretty good circle, having good debuffs and strong Constitution damage.
[spoiler]
Spellshape: Withering Hand
I already outlined the issues it has compared to the other spellshapes.

Baleful Hound (major 5)
How is this not strictly better than Stone Sentinel (CS 5)? It's got a better attack bonus (before including invisibility), sees and strikes invisible opponents, and makes a nigh-impassable space. Well, on further review, it isn't perfect. It can't move, it does less damage, and it doesn't lock down as much of the battlefield (3x3 > 1x1). The fact that it has a relevant attack bonus is a big plus, relatively speaking. It's still unimpressive.

Crippling Plague (major 3)
Sickening and up to 5d8 damage. There are better options.

Degenerative Necrosis (major 2)
6d6 damage over 3 rounds. Good damage when you get it, but ages poorly (as normal for formulae).

Enervating Hand (major 8)
1d4 negative levels on a spellshape attack (so melee), but Fort negates. Make it ranged and remove the save (or at least make it save for half or something) and we'd be talking 8th-level appropriate.

Festering Rot (major 2)
At best, it's 12 damage over 4 rounds in an area, and usually less.

Gangrenous Touch (major 5)
I'd write it off completely as low damage with a weak effect if it didn't stop regeneration. This is one of those utility formulae that you might want to keep around for when you run into some obscure creature with regeneration only bypassed by balsa wood or something. Not really worth taking except if you know your opponents are compulsive healers or something, but definitely worth mentioning.

Hand of Clinging Shadows (major 1)
Fort or have a small miss chance. Didn't the equivalent Shadow Hand maneuver also deal +1d6 damage?

Hand of Endless Shadows (major 4)
Fort or have a large miss chance. Could use more damage or an effect on a successful save or something, and that's discounting the fact that you're a squishy in melee.

Horrify (major 4)
Save or lose and a bit of a debuff on a success even. Good enough.

Infect (minor 4)
Adds a bit of ability damage to your spellshape. A decent variety of options.

Life Drain (major 3)
Small damage, small heal.

Mindrot (major 7)
Save or lose with a bit of damage. Okay. Note that it's not mind-affecting like you'd expect.

Petrifying Gaze (major 7)
Multiple save or loses, although each one still costs you actions. A very efficient formula, although I think the efficiency is wasted on a resource so easily recovered.

Putrefying Touch (minor 6)
Adds good Con damage to spellshape attacks.

Rotting Stench (major 5)
Shatter vs. organic materials. I'm not sure how the Fortitude Half save is supposed to work. Also note that Warlocks get Baleful Utterance much earlier than this.

Rotting Touch (minor 3)
Adds a bit of Con damage to spellshape attacks. Not that much, though. If disease immunity wasn't slightly more common than ability damage immunity, I'd recommend waiting for Infect.

Stringing Touch (major 2)
Staggers (effectively), gives an AC penalty, and makes spellcasting difficult. Good for its level.

Terrorize (major 1)
Very much so low-level only, but it does its job well.

Vampiric Feast (major 9)
Strong Con damage. Strong temporary hit points. Strong area save or lose (albeit with a small area). This is a good formula.

Vitality Drain (major 1)
Combat healing at a level when its still relevant. The whole squishy mage in melee kinda kills it, though.

Wither Soul (major 6)
See Enervating Hand, but only 1 negative level and two formula levels lower.
[/spoiler]


Perfect Freeze review:
Perfect Freeze does ???
Dex damage
[spoiler]
Spellshape: Frostray
An average, effective spellshape. Cold is the second-most resisted energy type, but it's also a common weakness (fire subtype), so it's cool (pun intended).

Avalanche Wave (major 6)
Weak damage. Short range. Knocking prone is not enough.

Bloodfreeze (major 5)
Good debuff that hurts even if you make the save.

Brain Freeze (major 1)
Save or lose half a turn? Could be worthwhile in the right circumstances, but most of the time I expect this is bad action economy.

Breath of Frost (major 3)
Level appropriate damage, but a very short range.

Chilling Ray (minor 2)
Adds a bit of Dex damage to spellshape attacks.

Flashfreeze (major 7)
Save or die, pretty much. Escaping this is difficult for anything other than a full-on bruiser has a good chance of falling unconscious from suffocation before this runs out, and even being trapped in there for 5 rounds is like a death sentence with respect to the current battle. I'm probably overrating this slightly, though, since it's not quite as deadly as I first assumed.

Freezing Ray (minor 5)
As Chilling Ray, but more Dex damage.

Glacial Freeze (major 6)
Save or lose.

Hailstorm (major 4)
I know you're basing this off of the Ice Storm spell, but its still lacklustre. The reduced land speed helps a bit with BfC, at least.

Hindering Ice (minor 4)
Save or suck for your spellshapes.

Hoarfrost (major 2)
Check your tags. You seem to have forgotten to close a bold tag here (and possibly the next few formulae as well). Save or suck.

Hypothermic Ray (major 3)
A bit of a debuff.

Ice Glaze (major 1)
Grease minus the Reflex save or fall prone. Still good BfC. What's the Balance DC? (Ice doesn't seem to have a Balance DC of its own that I can find in the SRD.)

---Will finish the rest another time. Stopped before Ice Spikes.---

[/spoiler]
A Guide to Free D&D - A resource of free, official D&D resources on the web.
General listing of my homebrew.
Links to things I've worked on
[spoiler]
Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
[/spoiler]

Garryl

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2011, 10:11:43 PM »
Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to make sure that my thoughts about new ideas were distinct from my evaluation of the existing ones.

These are all very good points people have been raising.  To begin, yes, it was a mistake that rockslam did less damage than the others.  A horrible, horrible mistake.

In terms of balancing spellshape attacks, what of bumping rockslam and all related formulae up to d8s (and possibly increasing the enhancement bonus on rockslam attack rolls to your full shaper level, rather than half), bumping kinetic blast and all related formulae down to d4s, and reducing Caustic Spray's range to 15 feet?

I think that a base/template system like psionics' energy powers might work better, since everything is basically the same but with a couple of minor and simple tweaks. For instance, if you have a basic spellblast that did 1d6 + 1d6/4 levels as a ranged touch attack out to 60 feet, and then you applied the templates (ie: Rockslam deals magical bludgeoning damage with no SR and a boost to hit, but its not a touch attack, Fire deals fire damage at +1 per die, Acid spray deals acid damage but has half range, etc.), um, well I suppose it might be a bit simpler, and easier to add more options without overwhelming people with what they need to know, maybe? I dunno, I'm keyboard rambling atm.

What might be nice is uncoupling the spellshapes from the tight leash that their circles have. If, rather than requiring a specific spellshape, you could use any spellshape you know for any spellshape formulae, possibly giving you multiple damage types on a single attack (which is a good option to have). That would even let you use some abilities against creatures that would ordinarily be immune to the formula's damage type (say, a Perfect Freeze formula with Caustic Spray might still freeze an enemy immune to cold damage). You could also have some formulae or feats that combine specific spellshapes with specific circles for additional benefit (ex: Hailstorm Blast is a Perfect Freeze formula that may also knock an opponent prone when used with the Rockslam spellshape). This would also allow you to diversify your spellshapes and their effects, like how Rockslam isn't a touch attack and how Withering Hand is a melee attack) without worrying about making one circle that much stronger or weaker because of it. If their effects are disparate enough, you might even consider giving spellshapers a limited number of spellshapes known, similar to an initiator's stances.

Just a possible example of how the existing spellshapes might change in the way I described above:
[spoiler]
Spellshapes (Sp): You can attack with various spellshapes that you know. They deal a base damage of 1d6 damage + 1d6/4 levels as a ranged touch attack with a range of 60 feet.

Caustic Spray: This spellshape deals acid damage and ignores the hardness of objects, but has only half the normal range. It is associated with the Deteriorating Corrosion circle.

Fireblast: This spellshape deals fire damage and deals +1 damage per base damage die. It is associated with the Searing Flame circle.

Frostray: This spellshape deals cold damage and deals +1 damage per base damage die. It is associated with the Perfect Freeze circle.

Galvanic Arc: This spellshape deals electricity damage and grants a +2 bonus on spellshaper level checks to oppose spell resistance. It is associated with the Shocking Current circle.

Kinetic Blast: This spellshape is a force effect and deals -1 damage per base damage die. It is associated with the Unseen Impetus circle.

Rockslam: This spellshape deals bludgeoning damage, but is subject to damage reduction. Rockslam attacks are not subject to spell resistance, but neither are they touch attacks. Instead, they are regular ranged attacks. Rockslam attacks have an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the base number of dice of damage they deal, and an insight bonus on attack rolls equal to three quarters of your spellshaper level. Rockslam is associated with the Crushing Stone circle.

Withering Touch: This spellshape deals negative energy damage (and thus heals undead). It is a melee touch attack instead of a ranged touch attack. However, you gain one temporary hit point for every 3 points of damage you deal with it. These temporary hit points do not stack with each other (use only the highest value) and last for up to 1 minute. Withering Touch is associated with the Devouring Shadow circle.
[/spoiler]
A Guide to Free D&D - A resource of free, official D&D resources on the web.
General listing of my homebrew.
Links to things I've worked on
[spoiler]
Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
[/spoiler]

DonQuixote

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2011, 02:52:29 AM »
Garryl, thank you for going through the formulae on a case-by-case basis.  That's going to be incredibly, invaluably helpful during the revision process.  One thing to bear in mind is that formulae were designed circle-by-circle, not level-by-level.  I hadn't even realized that Crushing Stone and Devouring Shadow had essentially the same ability--with Devouring Shadow's version being more powerful--as a fifth level formula.  That will definitely be changed.

I'll admit that Crushing Stone is one of the weakest circles, but that's because I really couldn't figure out what to do with it.  It's a rock that you hit things with.  You hit things with it VERY HARD.  Good catch on the Deteriorating Corrosion overlap, though.  I meant for it to be able to bypass spell resistance with that one minor formula, but hadn't realized how many other holes it had.

In terms of your "1d6 damage per level," what would you say to spellshape attacks doing 1d6 per two shaper levels, with formulae making up the difference?  That way, at twentieth level, you can choose to make a full attack (two 10d6 attacks) or shape one formulae (10d6 + Xd6 + effect).  Elemental adepts would be capable of making ridiculous full attacks, but maybe that's all right.  On second thought, I think I'll bump formula damage up, instead.

I think that a base/template system like psionics' energy powers might work better, since everything is basically the same but with a couple of minor and simple tweaks. For instance, if you have a basic spellblast that did 1d6 + 1d6/4 levels as a ranged touch attack out to 60 feet, and then you applied the templates (ie: Rockslam deals magical bludgeoning damage with no SR and a boost to hit, but its not a touch attack, Fire deals fire damage at +1 per die, Acid spray deals acid damage but has half range, etc.), um, well I suppose it might be a bit simpler, and easier to add more options without overwhelming people with what they need to know, maybe? I dunno, I'm keyboard rambling atm.

What might be nice is uncoupling the spellshapes from the tight leash that their circles have. If, rather than requiring a specific spellshape, you could use any spellshape you know for any spellshape formulae, possibly giving you multiple damage types on a single attack (which is a good option to have). That would even let you use some abilities against creatures that would ordinarily be immune to the formula's damage type (say, a Perfect Freeze formula with Caustic Spray might still freeze an enemy immune to cold damage). You could also have some formulae or feats that combine specific spellshapes with specific circles for additional benefit (ex: Hailstorm Blast is a Perfect Freeze formula that may also knock an opponent prone when used with the Rockslam spellshape). This would also allow you to diversify your spellshapes and their effects, like how Rockslam isn't a touch attack and how Withering Hand is a melee attack) without worrying about making one circle that much stronger or weaker because of it. If their effects are disparate enough, you might even consider giving spellshapers a limited number of spellshapes known, similar to an initiator's stances.

While I can see how this would work mechanically, it runs very much against my conception of the system.  I want to keep the spellshape attacks as distinct abilities--and, if that means that I have to go through a little bit more of balancing hell, then so be it.  And the concept of combining different spellshape attacks with different formulae was an idea I considered, then rejected.  I don't like the idea of flaming frost or acidic rocks--especially not as a base concept.  I could conceivably see an Energy Substitution sort of feat that would allow you to change the association of a formula, but it would probably have some sort of metamagic-like cost.  Perhaps you have to use a swift action to activate it, meaning that you can't also shape minor formulae on that attack?

In terms of combinations of different circles, bear in mind that I have yet to write any tactical feats--and they are a possibility for the future.


Edit: Fixed the typos and errors that you pointed out.  There are going to be more than a few formatting errors, since I had to convert a 184-page Word document to forum tags.  Also, yeah.  As I said in the introduction, a good number of abilities were cribbed from existing spells or class features.  My project here was more fitting a system together, rather than coming up with all-new, original ideas.  Of course, I would be ecstatic if, through the revision process, we did come up with all-new, original ideas.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 12:47:34 PM by DonQuixote »

DonQuixote

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2011, 03:01:03 AM »
The following four abilities represent a possible class feature for the elemental adept, or a possible replacement of the elemental shape ability of the elemental channeler prestige class.  I didn't mean to write them tonight, they just sort of...happened.  Should they be added to the elemental adept as a 10th level (or later) ability, or give to elemental channelers to replace their wild shape knock-off?
[spoiler]

Wind's Shape (Su): You can expend one of your daily uses of your ability to rebuke creatures of the air subtype as an immediate action to transform yourself into a fierce whirlwind.  At the beginning of each of your subsequent turns, you must use a swift action to expend one daily additional daily use of your ability to rebuke creatures of the air subtype.  If you do not or cannot do so, you return to your natural form.
   In this form, you can move through the air or along a surface at a fly speed equal to your land speed.  The whirlwind is 5 feet wide at the base, up to 30 feet wide at the top, and up to 30 feet tall.  You control the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet.
   Your movement while in whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if you enter the space another creature occupies.  Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if you move into or through the creature's space.
   Creatures of Large size or smaller might take damage when caught in the whirlwind and may be lifted into the air.  An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your shaper level + your Charisma modifier) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take damage equal to twice the damage dealt by your galvanic arc attack (though this damage is not electricity damage).  It must also  succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round.  A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind.  The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful.
   Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where you carry them or to escape the whirlwind.  Creatures caught in the whirlwind can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell or shape a formula.  Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a -4 penalty to Dexterity and a -2 penalty on attack rolls.  You can have only as many creatures trapped inside the whirlwind at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind's volume.
   You can eject any carried creatures where you wish, depositing them wherever the whirlwind happens to be.
   While in whirlwind form, you cannot make spellshape attacks or shape formulae, and you do not threaten the area around you.




Earth's Shape (Su): You can expend one of your daily uses of your ability to rebuke creatures of the earth subtype as an immediate action to transform yourself into a unstoppable boulder.  At the beginning of each of your subsequent turns, you must use a swift action to expend one daily additional daily use of your ability to rebuke creatures of the earth subtype.  If you do not or cannot do so, you return to your natural form.
   In this form, your natural armor bonus becomes +20, regardless of any natural armor bonus from your normal form.  You also gain DR 10/- and 100 temporary hit points, which last until you revert to your normal form.  The boulder has a diameter of 10 feet, and you move along the ground at your land speed.
   Your movement while in boulder form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if you enter the space another creature occupies.
   If you enter and occupy all of the space occupied by a creature of Large size or smaller, it may be crushed under the weight of the stone.  An affected creature takes crushing damage equal to twice the damage dealt by your rockslam attack (though this damage is not bludgeoning damage).  It must also make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your shaper level + your Charisma modifier) or be knocked prone.
   You can deal crushing damage to a creature only once per round, no matter how many times you move into or through its space.  You must move into every square a creature occupies to crush it.  If you move over only part of the space a creature occupies (for example, you move over only half the space of a Large opponent), it can attempt a Reflex save (same DC) to avoid half of your crushing damage, and it has no chance of being knocked prone.
   If you fall while in this form, you do not take falling damage.  Instead, any creature in the space you fall into takes 1d6 points of damage for every ten feet you fell, in addition to the crushing damage that you deal by rolling over it.  Creatures adjacent to the space you fall into take no damage, but must make Reflex saves (same DC as above) or be knocked prone by the impact.
   While in boulder form, you cannot make spellshape attacks or shape formulae, and you do not threaten the area around you.




Fire's Shape (Su): You can expend one of your daily uses of your ability to rebuke creatures of the fire subtype as an immediate action to transform yourself into an unpredictable wildfire.  At the beginning of each of your subsequent turns, you must use a swift action to expend one daily additional daily use of your ability to rebuke creatures of the fire subtype.  If you do not or cannot do so, you return to your natural form.
   In this form, you are immune to weapon damage of any kind and half damage from any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate).  You take normal damage from spells that affect an area, such as splash weapons, and double damage from any spell that deals cold damage in an area.  The flames cover a 15-ft.-radius spread, and you move along the ground at your land speed.
   Your movement while in wildfire form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if you enter the space another creature occupies.
   Any creature that starts its turn in the area covered by your flames takes damage and may catch fire.  An affected creature takes fire damage equal to twice the damage dealt by your fireblast attack, with a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your shaper level + your Charisma modifier) for half damage.  A creature that fails this Reflex save also catches on fire, burning for 1d4 rounds.  A burning creature can take a move action to put out this flame.  In addition, moving through the area of wildfire deals 2d6 points of fire damage per five feet of movement.
   Creatures near the wildfire are also affected by the intense heat.  Any creature that starts its turn in a square adjacent to the area covered by your flames takes 1d4 points of fire damage for every five shaper levels you possess, with a Fortitude save (same DC as above) for half damage.  A creature that fails this Fortitude save also experiences minor heatstroke, becoming temporarily fatigued for 1d3 rounds.
   While in wildfire form, you  cannot make spellshape attacks or shape formulae, and you do not threaten the area around you.




Water's Shape (Su): You can expend one of your daily uses of your ability to rebuke creatures of the water subtype as an immediate action to transform yourself into a large body of churning water.  At the beginning of each of your subsequent turns, you must use a swift action to expend one daily additional daily use of your ability to rebuke creatures of the water subtype.  If you do not or cannot do so, you return to your natural form.
   In this form, your fluid body can flow around weapons and spells' blasts.  Attacks made against you have a 50% miss chance, and any effect or spell that allows a Reflex save for half damage has a 50% chance to have no effect on you at all.  The water forms a 15-ft.-radius sphere, and you move along the ground at your land speed.
   Your movement while in water form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if you enter the space another creature occupies.
   As a standard action, you can flow over Large or smaller creatures, entrapping them within your liquid form.  You simply move into the opponent's space; any creature whose space you completely cover is subject to being engulfed.  You can engulf as many creatures as fit in your space.  A creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your shaper level + your Charisma modifier) or be engulfed; on a success, a creature moves aside or back (opponent's choice) to move out of your path.
   Engulfed creatures are considered to be grappled within your body, and they are subject to the churning waters of your form.  Affected creatures automatically take bludgeoning damage equal to twice the damage dealt by your frostray attack (though this damage is not cold damage) each round that they continue to be engulfed, with a Fortitude save (same DC as above) for half damage.  Engulfed creatures that breathe air also might drown (DMG 304)
   In addition, you can flow through tiny cracks in objects and move through the earth, walls, and other obstacles.  You move at normal speed through terrain that slows movement.  You can move through permeable objects at half speed, but cannot move through completely solid barriers.
   If you end your movement completely within an object, opponents do not have line of sight or line of effect to you.  Your reach drops to 0 feet.  Any creatures engulfed within you (see below) fall out, dropping prone at the edge of the object.  If only part of your form is in an object, but your remaining space cannot hold all the creatures within it, you choose which ones to release.
   In this form, your touch puts out torches, campfires, exposed lanterns, and other open flames of nonmagical origin if these are of Large size or smaller.  You can also dispel magical fire you touch as dispel magic (caster level equals your shaper level).
   While in water form, you cannot make spellshape attacks or shape formulae, and you do not threaten the area around you.
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 08:19:24 PM by DonQuixote »

DonQuixote

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2011, 08:20:19 PM »
Updated main post in response to feedback.  Formula damage has been increased, rockslam now deals damage in d8s, elemental adept has been given some love, and a new feat has been added.  Had to remove some fluff to account for the increased number of characters in the posts, but I still have it all in my word document.

I eagerly await feedback on the remaining four circles and the prestige classes!

Edit: Wow, I really didn't sleep enough last night.  I forgot that I already had two posts in a row at the end of this thread.  *Eternal shame*  Many apologies for the egregious triple-post.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 08:26:05 PM by DonQuixote »

Garryl

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2011, 10:08:57 PM »
Do you have a summary of the changes you made? I remember there being one, but I can't find it any more.

How does Pinpoint Avalanche interact with large creatures that can't be buried by a mere 5 feet of rubble?
Shower of Stone refers to caster level instead of shaper level.
Is there any reason that Overwhelming Slam is based on the damage done instead of the usual 10 + level + stat DC? If you're going to leave it damage-based, may I suggest switching the cap on the DC to instead be a cap on the damage that contributes to the DC so that external DC boosters (like Circle Focus) can still boost it?

For clarity, Acrid Pool should specify that only the damage is subject to SR (since the change to difficult terrain affects the terrain, not the creatures moving through it). If you want to make the difficult terrain subject to SR, you should change the wording to something more like Corrosive Sludge (which directly affects the creatures who move through it).
Cloud of Corrosion should specify for clarity that the obstruction of line of sight is not subject to SR (unless it is, but that seems strange to me).
I'm surprised that Venomous Air, of all formulae, is unaffected by SR.
I'm saddened that Disintegrating Spray doesn't have the ability to eat through solid material any more. Unfortunately, that leaves it as the only damaging spellshape attack of that circle to do nothing but damage (other than the 1st level Clinging Venom). It is nice to have some redundancy. Crushing Stone doesn't have to be the only circle to take down barriers and walls. With Disintegrating Spray losing its automatic disintegration of objects, could you add something like that into a Crushing Stone formula? At the least, please give something the ability to knock down/through force effects like Disintegrate could.

Devouring Touch's name is bolded. Sorry, the first time I read through, I hadn't realized that only the font size was increased in the names (no bolding).
Enervating Touch's save line still says Fortitude negates. It should say Fortitude partial (since you only halve the negative levels, not the damage). It should also specify that the negative levels disappear after 24 hours without the risk of permanent levels loss (which seems to be the intent, but is unclear since negative levels normally disappear after 24 hours anyways, but with a risk of permanent level loss).
Wither Soul should also specify that the negative level disappears after 24 hours without the risk of permanent levels loss (which seems to be the intent, but is unclear since negative levels normally disappear after 24 hours anyways, but with a risk of permanent level loss).

Major Formulas: I notice that most of these that use a spellshape attack have SR no. Shouldn't they just piggyback off of the existing SR status of the spellshape? If so, I would suggest removing the SR line entirely or replacing it with another term (such as "SR: As spellshape") to avoid any ambiguities (with the usual "see text" for when some parts are one way and others another).

I'll go through the rest of the circles later, hopefully once you've had a chance to look at them yourself and apply any changes you deem fit.


Elemental Transformations:
None of these seem to address what happens to your equipment. Also, the action required to change into elemental form could use some tweaking. By spending an immediate action outside your turn, you lose your next swift action, making you unable to maintain the form next turn. The only way to stay in it consistently is to do the unintuitive thing and spend the immediate action during your turn (which counts as that turn's swift action instead of next's).
You have an erroneous "daily" in the first paragraph of each of these abilities ("...expend one daily additional daily use...").

Wind makes you a whirlwind. The maneuverability of your granted fly speed is not stated. The wording on the damage type could use some rewording. It's technically correct, but saying what it's not isn't as clear as saying what it is (untyped). Something like "...or take untyped damage equal to twice the damage dealt by your galvanic arc attack."

Earth grants a ton of temporary hit points. It should deal bludgeoning damage instead of crushing damage (there's no such thing as crushing damage). A few of your other formulae also say crushing damage instead of bludgeoning, too (Avalanche Wave is one of them, I wasn't really looking). If its supposed to be damage from crushing instead of crushing damage type, a little clarification would be appreciated. See wind form comments for explaining what the damage type actually is. The only issue I have is how the temporary hit points encourage you to rapidly shift in and out of boulder form each turn you would otherwise maintain it, which is just unintuitive and weird. It should also specify that creature's are only at risk of being crushed and/or knocked prone from your falling when you fall at least a certain distance (probably 10 feet). Otherwise, a boulder jumping up and down 1 millimeter (or an arbitrarily short distance) would deal absurd damage to a creature in the same space. It should also specifically state that you are treated as a Large creature (appropriate to a boulder with a 10 foot space) for clarity.

Fire form, ironically, still lets you take fire damage. You should clarify whether or not creatures that start their turns in the wildfire (rather than adjacent to it) are still subject to heatstroke. There's no need to specify the action required to put out being on fire, as that condition already has rules for it (DC 15 Reflex save at the start of your turn, and drop prone for +4 on the save, no action required).

For consistency, I would suggest using the existing text for the Engulf ability when constructing the water form's engulfing attack (but I think you already did that, so don't mind me). It looks good, although I am slightly confused about the whole reach thing. Since you don't have any limbs, how can you make any attacks in any of the element forms, regardless of your reach? If you're supposed to be able attack normally, or whatever way you intend, some clarification would be nice.
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DonQuixote

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2011, 11:13:08 PM »
Changes

Elemental Adept: Base attack bonus and hit die improved, granted access to all four elemental circles (rather than just the chosen one), granted some immunities at 5th level, granted ability to cast summon elemental monolith at 20th level.

Impulse Mage: Granted new capstone feature, allowing you to send a target through the time stream once per day.

Feats: New "Reshape Formula" feat allows you to shape spellshape-altering formulae as though they belonged to different circles.

Spellshape Attacks: Rockslam damage increased to d8s.  Caustic Spray range reduced to 15 feet.  Kinetic blast damage reduced to d4s.

Formulae: Formulae of the Crushing Stone, Deteriorating Corrosion, and Devouring Shadow circles were edited in line with Garryl's feedback.  On Garryl's suggestion, Spell Resistance field on many formulae changed to read "As spellshape."  Update: Altered the Searing Flame circle slightly, to bring it in line with other recent changes.  Update again: Same goes for Perfect Freeze, which also incorporates some of Garryl's suggestions for the first half of the circle.

Inevitable Post-Update Errors: Fixed grammatical oversights, accidental removals, clunky mechanics, and unclear text.  For example, Pinpoint Avalanche now clarifies that creatures are buried under a five-foot layer of rubble, rather than implying that they were buried in five feet of rubble.

Elemental Transformations: I think I'm going to say that I was clearly far too tired last night to be thinking straight.  They're unnecessary, really.  Ignore them.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 01:55:16 PM by DonQuixote »

Bauglir

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2011, 06:42:09 PM »
One thing I noticed. Might want to mention no expensive material components on Arcane Knack as well, or else Simulacrum shenanigans become inevitable.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

DonQuixote

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2011, 02:28:45 PM »
Fixed Arcane Knack and reviewed damage for Shocking Current formulae.  As it is now, I believe that only Unseen Impetus still has level-inappropriate damage.

While doing this damage pass, I've been slightly tweaking some mechanics that seemed underpowered.  Some things have been changed to minor formulae, while others have received more in-depth modifications.  Are there any abilities that seem remarkably out-of-tune with the rest of the level's formulae?

Garryl

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2011, 03:07:53 PM »
Does the Impulse Mage's ability to turn spellshapes and formulae into supernatural effects means they aren't affected by ASF anymore? I can't tell if Su abilities' lack of ASF overrides the addition of ASF to the Sp abilities that the spellshapes and formulae originally wer.

Clinging Venom is (almost) strictly weaker than Armor-Eating Acid. Its only advantage is forcing a Concentration check to cast spells in the next round (since it can be read as dealing "continuous" damage for a DC 10 + 1/2 damage + spell level Concentration check).If you want to pump it up a bit, you could work with that or something. Or, maybe make it a minor like the Scorching Blast line.

Sparkflash might be a little weak. Dazzling isn't exactly a strong condition. It's only -1 to attack rolls (and Spot checks, but those don't come up too often in combat).

Gone through levels 1 and 2 so far, and that's all that shot out at me. I didn't read the Unseen Impetus formulae too thoroughly since you said you were still adjusting them, but they looked okay as well (barring the usually damage changes).
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DonQuixote

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2011, 01:57:29 PM »
Changed the Impulse Mage ability to be specific--formulae shaped as supernatural abilities are not subject to arcane spell failure.

Changed Clinging Venom to a minor formulae and finished the first Unseen Impetus damage pass, concluding the first run of damage passes.

Given that Sparkflash dazzles creatures for 1 minute, is it still that weak?  No other formula that I can recall lasts that long.

Bauglir

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2011, 03:44:27 PM »
Sparkflash'd still be pretty weak. Even if it didn't allow a save, you're still spending a standard action to do nothing but apply a -1 penalty to attack rolls for 10 rounds. I wouldn't waste the action on that, even at level 1. Spending an action to lower an opponent's percentage chance to hit you by 5 isn't really a good idea. Think of it this way; would you spend a standard action to grant yourself and your party a +1 bonus to AC that lasted a minute? It's only slightly better than the Resistance cantrip.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

DonQuixote

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2011, 03:59:44 PM »
Point.  Sparkflash updated to daze for 1 round on a failed Fortitude save.  Even on a successful save, creatures affected by it are dazzled for 1 minute.

Also, I've completed the pass on Unseen Impetus, concluding the first pass on the formulae.  Everything has been brought up in damage, and the effects of a few formulae have been tweaked to bring them in line.  On the whole, though, I left much intact.



I'm also not entirely sure I'm happy with where the elemental adept has gone.  I'm considering nixing the BAB increase and smite ability, then altering the class a little.  Starting at fourth level, you'd have a daily pool of currently-unnamed points equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
   At 4th level, you'd gain the ability to spend one of these points to turn/rebuke.
   At 8th level, you'd be able to shape a spellshape-altering major formula as though it were a higher level (increasing the DC by 1 and dealing an extra two dice of damage per level) by spending one point per level.  This would cap at the highest level of formulae you can shape.
   At 12th level, you'd be able to spend a full-round action to summon up to four elementals by spending one point per two hit dice of elementals summoned.

I'm not sure what to grant at 16th level, nor am I sure if this is even a good idea.  Thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 06:30:04 PM by DonQuixote »

Bauglir

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2011, 06:36:18 PM »
Make those extra abilities just consume turn attempts. It works out roughly the same way, plus it allows more favorable multiclassing with element-turning Clerics. I think. If you nix the BAB, you may want to add a second good save based on path (Fort for Earth and Water, Ref for Fire and Air?), just to give it something to make up for it. Fort saves are more valuable than Ref saves, in general, though, so I'm not sure how well-balanced that is.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

DonQuixote

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2011, 05:00:10 PM »
You're right, no reason to not just use turn/rebuke attempts for that.

So, here's what I'm thinking thus far:
BAB returns to poor
Wrath of Elements (smite ability) is removed

In return:
Fortitude save increases to good

And the following abilities are gained:

8th level:
Elemental Empowerment (Su): When shaping a major formula of your chosen element's associated circle, you can choose to spend any number of daily turn/rebuke attempts to empower the formula.  For every two turn attempts you spend in this fashion, the level of the formula increases by one, to a maximum level equal to the highest level of formulae that you can shape.  The formula's DC increases accordingly, and all spells or effects treat it as though it were of its new, higher level.
   In addition, formulae empowered in this fashion deal extra damage to foes.  Formulae that add hit point damage to your spellshape attack add an extra two dice of damage for each added level.  Formulae that deal an amount of damage determined by shaper level have their maximum damage increased: formulae increased to third level or higher deal a maximum of 10 dice of damage, while formulae increased to sixth level or higher deal a maximum of 15 dice of damage.


12th level:
Call the Elements (Sp): As a full-round action, you can choose to spend any number of daily turn/rebuke attempts to summon a group of elementals to defend you and fight your enemies.  This ability functions like the summon monster spells, with the following exceptions.  You can only summon elementals with the subtype of your chosen element.  You can summon up to four elementals of any size, with a total number of hit dice equal to twice the number of turn attempts you spend in this fashion.  Treat this ability as a spell with a level equal to half your shaper level, rounded up, with a maximum level of 9th.  Your caster level with this ability is equal to your shaper level.


16th level:
Wrath of Elements (Su): When shaping a major formula that requires a single attack with your chosen element's spellshape attack, you can choose to shape that formula as a full-round action and spend any number of daily turn/rebuke attempts to direct the formula against multiple foes.  For every four turn attempts you spend in this fashion, you may attack an additional foe with the formula's associated spellshape attack, taking a -4 penalty on the attack roll.  Each foe struck by your spellshape attack in this round is affected by the formula's normal effect.

bkdubs123

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2011, 12:54:34 AM »
Sparkflash is now amazingly overpowered, in my opinion. An area effect daze useable once per encounter at 1st level is easily as powerful as the most powerful 1st level spells (Color Spray and Sleep).

The reason I suggested medium BAB for the Elemental Adept was so that they were more accurate with their Spellshape attacks and formula than the other casters, which seems appropriate given that they are supposed to be masters of their elements, and only have access to the elemental circles.

Honestly, you could give the Elemental Adept d10 HD, medium base attack, a good fortitude save and all of those turn/rebuke class features and it would still look balanced against the other two classes in my opinion. The other two classes have access to all the circles and have powerful class features of their own. Though I do think that removing the Smite ability is a good idea. It hardly did anything in the first place.

Those turn/rebuke features are cool, but not super-powerful. Wrath of Elements is interesting, but I think the -4 penalty to your attack roll is unnecessary. You're going to be burning through your turn/rebuke attempts extremely rapidly to use it, and it's a 16th level class feature it's allowed to be pretty awesome.

DonQuixote

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Re: [3.5 Book] ToB-Style Casters - The Spellshapers (Criticism Wanted)
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2011, 03:56:50 AM »
Well, I would think that the fact that allies are also susceptible to the burst makes it a little bit more situational, but I'll lower the duration of the dazzling to three rounds.

And, tomorrow, I'll get the updated elemental adept table up and add the new abilities to its class description in the main post.  Edit: Changes have been posted.  So has the change to Sparkflash.


In other news, at the behest of my DM for the summer, I'll be writing another few circles of formulae over the next week or two--specifically Air, Water, Light, Moon, and Wood.  With the advent of proper Air and Water circles, the circle access for elemental adepts is going to change up slightly.  All adepts will have access to formulae from the Blustering Gale, Crushing Stone, Searing Flame, and Roaring Tide circles.  In addition, air-devoted adepts will gain access to Shocking Current formulae, earth-devoted adepts will gain access to Deteriorating Corrosion formulae, fire-devoted adepts will gain access to Brilliant Dawn formulae, and water-devoted adepts will gain access to Perfect Freeze formulae.  Class features will apply to both the base element and the granted circle--for example, fire-devoted adepts will be able to apply their abilities to both Searing Flame formulae and Brilliant Dawn formulae.

In order to accommodate the new circles, a few prestige classes will be receiving altered formula access, but no class features will be drastically changed.  An additional prestige class or two might be written, but I won't know until I see what kind of new formulae come out of this.

Update: Having now figured out what most of the effects will be--only eighteen more to figure out--it looks like it will mostly be modifications to existing prestige classes.  Maybe one new prestige class will be added, but not much beyond that.

Update Again: I've now figured out all the effects for the formulae of the new circles.  I'll be writing up the full versions now and will hopefully have them posted by the end of next week.

Update the Third: At this point, I've finished the Formula List versions for Blustering Gale, Brilliant Dawn, and Glimmering Moon.  Should be done with this part by the end of the night.

Update IV: A New Hope: It is a period of civil war.  Rebel formulae, striking from a hidden spellshaper, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

I have now finished the Formula List entries for the new formulae.  I'll now start writing the long-form descriptions of all 105.  No clue how long it will take me.

Update V: The Formulae Strike Back: It is a dark time for the Rebellion.  Although the Blustering Gale circle has been written, Brilliant Dawn formulae have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy.

Yup, finished writing up the complete text of the Blustering Gale circle, which means that we will be moving on to Brilliant Dawn either tomorrow or later tonight.  (Update to the update: Brilliant Dawn is finished.  I'll be starting Glimmering Moon later tonight or tomorrow.  [Update to the update to the update: Glimmering Moon is finished.  Natural Balance will be written next.])  Having established that I can definitely write a complete circle in one day, I feel confident* in guaranteeing that the new circles will all be finished--and hopefully posted--by the weekend.  While I could post them one at a time, I have made the arbitrary decision to post them all at once so that they're all in one lump.

*The management would like to take this opportunity to point out that any statements made by DonQuixote represent his personal opinions, and not those of the company, its stockholders, or any subsidiary companies.  The management accepts no responsibility for late posts.

Lesser Update That Does Not Count as the Sixth Update Because This Star Wars Theme is Awesome, Damn It: So, it's pretty clear at this point that I missed my original schedule.  This is due to several factors--the most dire of which is that my girlfriend's computer was brutally murdered by a devious bottle of Coca-Cola.  During this period of mourning, she has been utilizing my laptop, preventing me from concocting as much homebrew as I otherwise would.  She is currently out of town with the computer, but will be returning Tuesday morning.  The new circles are coming, and you'll be seeing a lot more utility--such as confusion, healing, and inspire courage effects--in the new formulae.


Update VI: Return of the Spellshapers: My girlfriend has returned to her home planet of Pennsylvania in an attempt to rescue her friend DonQuixote from the clutches of the vile fate of not having a computer.

Little does she know that her Affable Boyfriend has secretly begun construction on a new circle of formulae even more powerful than the first seven circles.

Yep, computer's back.  Also, using friends' resources, I actually was able to get Natural Balance written last night, leaving only Roaring Tide to be done.  However, given my track record, I suspect it's best to not try and issue a time frame.  I'll get the new circles posted as quickly as possible.

In the meantime, I had some thoughts!  They have been posted in my most recent post.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 02:58:26 PM by DonQuixote »