Author Topic: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)  (Read 8008 times)

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Andion Isurand

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Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« on: March 11, 2011, 04:49:56 AM »
Or... if you were so inclined, how might you rewrite these spells?

Rejakor

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2011, 05:36:35 AM »
I honestly have a bad habit of using variants that grant more feats or literally handing out free feats.

Most builds are feat-starved or only get to do their cool stuff by like level 15.  With how weak feats are generally and how many you need to set up worthwhile 'tricks', the game should hand out three to four times as many as it does.

bananaphone

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2011, 05:40:09 AM »
I would love for my Swiftblade to swap out Spring Attack and Bounding Assault.

Andion Isurand

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2011, 05:47:27 AM »
Yeah, part of me wishes that all Loremaster Secrets and the third level Harper Mage "Extend Spell" feature (which works just like Sudden Extend Spell except you get to use it 1 + Cha mod times per day) counted as feats...
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 06:59:21 AM by Andion Isurand »

Rejakor

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 06:10:39 AM »
Dip cloistered cleric, grab two domains that grant feats, voila.

Pay a couple thousand G or visit those planar locations that grant feats, voila.  Technically repeatable.

Serve an elder evil, get 5 free feats, voila.

Andion Isurand

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2011, 06:33:16 AM »
A cloistered cleric dip gets "better" even when you don't plan on taking any divine/devotion feats....  as you can give up Turning/Rebuking for one of the Cleric ACFs from Dragon 353 (page 89).

   One of them nets you Scribe Scroll (with a 25% exp discount)...
   While another nets you Endurance (plus added class skills)...

Then you have Flaws for Clerics in Dragon Magazine 326 (page 91) that also work well for a dip.

So... depending on what's allowed... its possible to get 6 feats (counting Knowledge Devotion) from a one level dip.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 06:50:11 AM by Andion Isurand »

AtomicKitKat

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2011, 06:58:39 AM »
The way the game's set up right now, you could give 1 Feat every level, Fighters a Bonus Feat every class level, and they'd still not be up to par. :p

Andion Isurand

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2011, 07:09:08 AM »
Yeah, I often dabble with adding Pathfinder class features to the 3.5 mundane non-casters.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 07:13:34 AM by Andion Isurand »

Mixster

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2011, 07:24:31 AM »
I honestly have a bad habit of using variants that grant more feats or literally handing out free feats.

Most builds are feat-starved or only get to do their cool stuff by like level 15.  With how weak feats are generally and how many you need to set up worthwhile 'tricks', the game should hand out three to four times as many as it does.

I agree, but I would rather hand out extra feats than just have them use some obscure rules combination to get them.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2011, 09:22:23 AM »
There just needs to be a loophole closed with feats that can be traded out like the Chameleon floating feat or magical locations like the Otyugh Hole so that you don't get an essentially uncapped influx of feats.  The feats you trade in/out with DCFS also need to still be tied to the slots they come from.

Also, no trading out feat-like stuff such as weapon proficiencies.  Absolutely no dice there.

Bastian

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2011, 09:59:54 AM »
There just needs to be a loophole closed with feats that can be traded out like the Chameleon floating feat or magical locations like the Otyugh Hole so that you don't get an essentially uncapped influx of feats.  The feats you trade in/out with DCFS also need to still be tied to the slots they come from.

Also, no trading out feat-like stuff such as weapon proficiencies.  Absolutely no dice there.
No one is proposing the trading out of weapon proficiencies. The problem is that some races, such as elves, specifically get the feat, not just the proficiency.

skydragonknight

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2011, 10:10:59 AM »
It's fine so long as you force them to pay the XP.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

JaronK

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2011, 05:29:20 PM »
Or... if you were so inclined, how might you rewrite these spells?

The obvious choice is that you can only swap out level gained feats with Embrace the Dark Chaos, and you can only gain feats that you would have qualified for at the time you got the original feat when using Shun the Dark Chaos.  That stops endless looping and just makes it a quicker rebuild option.

JaronK

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2011, 05:42:37 PM »
Or you could use the Retrain Option from Player's Handbook 2.
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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2011, 06:38:05 PM »
Without throwing in more crazy go nuts 8s and 9s type things ...
you reach a point where the exp burn has you down a level for a little while.

So the real cost is 2 8th level spells, and 1 level behind for some part of a level.
Some of the full casters are getting 2 9th level spells at leveling up.
This means the trade is 2 8th level spells and 2+ 9th levels spells, for a few feats.
When you catch up the level the trade is 2 8th level spells, for a few feats.

Of course CO-ing can mitigate such small problems ...  :smirk

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2011, 08:17:05 PM »
No one is proposing the trading out of weapon proficiencies. The problem is that some races, such as elves, specifically get the feat, not just the proficiency.
Use the MM version, then.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2011, 09:46:07 PM »
I see "Yes/No." Why no "No/Yes" response??
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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2011, 01:52:42 AM »
I see "Yes/No." Why no "No/Yes" response??
If they're not allowed in the game, then how can they be used on feats gained from magical locations?

skydragonknight

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2011, 03:49:46 AM »
I see "Yes/No." Why no "No/Yes" response??
If they're not allowed in the game, then how can they be used on feats gained from magical locations?

NPCs?
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

boomslang

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Re: Embrace/Shun The Dark Chaos (from Fiendish Codex I)
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2011, 05:07:16 AM »
NPCs?

As a DM, you're actually free to just give NPCs extra feats arbitrarily. So long as the CR is fair for the encounter, it's all good. If, as a DM, you're instead relying on a genuinely broken spell combo instead, you're not being any more reasonable. It's still extra feats solely because you want the NPC to have extra feats. Why pretend otherwise?

As far as PCs using it goes, that's unsportsmanlike behavior. But then, I only DM for people I like and respect. So it's pretty easy to make gentlemen's (or ladies') agreement to simply steer clear of the whole mess.