Author Topic: Multiclassing that Works  (Read 2893 times)

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Squirrelloid

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Multiclassing that Works
« on: July 17, 2008, 08:27:55 AM »
Originally on gleemax, but I think this board will appreciate it more.

What follows is my impression of a multiclass system which works and isn't greatly underpowered.  If you're going to claim its broken, please prove it rather than just asserting it.  Of course its more powerful than the current system, the current system is made of fail, so comparisons to the current system will be ignored.

I am of course also open to any suggested tweaks others may think of.

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Feats

Multiclass (X)
Prerequisite: 13 in an attribute used for at least one attack power to-hit roll by the chosen class
Effect: Choose a class other than your own.  You are now multiclassed into that class.
You gain skill training in one skill normally available to the chosen class.
You must swap one of your at-will powers with one of the chosen class's at-will powers.
You may use implements appropriate to the new class for powers which require them, if any.
Special: You may only choose this feat once.

Novice Power
Prerequisite: Multiclass feat, 4th level
Effect: Replace an encounter power from your primary class with an encounter power from your secondary class of the same power level or lower.

Additionally, choose a skill available to your secondary class.  You gain a +2 feat bonus to skill checks with that skill.  You need not be trained in this skill. 

Acolyte Power
Prerequisite: Multiclass feat, 6th level
Effect: Replace an utility power from your primary class with an utility power from your secondary class of the same power level or lower.

Additionally, choose a skill from your secondary class that you are not trained in.  You are now trained in that skill.

Adept Power
Prerequisite: Multiclass feat, 8th level
Effect: Replace a daily power from your primary class with a daily power from your secondary class of the same power level or lower.

Additionally, as a daily power useable as a free action, you may replace one use of an attribute in a power from your secondary class with a key attribute of your primary class (your choice for which attribute).  For example, you might choose to use a different attribute for the attack roll, or you might use a different attribute for a secondary effect.  However, only one use of an attribute is changed.

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Paragon Paths
If you are multiclassed into a class, instead of pursuing one of your own Paragon Paths you may pursue a paragon path of that class.  You count as meeting all class and class feature pre-requisites, even if you don't have them.

Alternately, you may choose your multiclass as your paragon path if you have the novice, acolyte, and adept power feats.  You are now fully multiclassed into the new class, and equally count as your original class and your second class.

Paragon Full Multiclass
At 11th level you gain any one encounter power from your second class of level lower than your own. 

At 12th level you gain any one utility power from your second class of level lower than your own.

At 20th level you gain any one daily power from your second class of level lower than your own.

All such powers are class powers, and when you subsequently gain a level which allows you to replace a class power with a higher level one, you may choose to replace these.  Whenever you replace a power you must choose a new one from the same class.

Additionally, paragon full multiclassing grants you access to class features of your second class as follows:

Cleric
11th: Healing Word, Healer's Lore
16th: Channel Divinity

Fighter
11th: Combat Challenge, Fighter Weapon Talent
16th: Combat Superiority

Paladin
11th: Divine Challenge, Lay on Hands
16th: Channel Divinity

Ranger
11th: Fighting Style
16th: Hunter's Quarry, Prime Shot

Rogue
11th: First Strike, Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack
16th: Rogue Tactics

Warlock
11th: Eldritch Pact, Warlock's Curse
16th: Prime Shot, Shadow Walk

Warlord
11th: Commanding Presence
16th: Combat Leader, Inspiring Word

Wizard
11th: Spellbook*, Cantrips
16th: Implement Mastery

All class features gained function exactly like they would if the class were your primary class.

*Spellbook becomes retroactive for any other wizard utility or daily power 'slots' you have.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 08:31:58 AM by Squirrelloid »
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X-Codes

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Re: Multiclassing that Works
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 11:15:47 AM »
First off, what really bugs me about the utility powers is that you can only swap one.  In other words, you will have 4 utility powers from your primary class, 1 from your secondary class, 1 from your paragon path, and 1 from your epic destiny.  Now, even if you go with Paragon Multiclassing and ignore the Epic Destiny (which arguably aren't even tied to classes) you wind up with 4 powers from your main class and 2 from your secondary class in a system that's supposed to break them about 50/50.

Therefore, my suggestion is to allow Acolyte Power to swap 2 powers starting at level 16.  Edge can be gained from wise power-swapping, so having one feat swap two powers is enough of a boost to make it an actually worthwhile feat IMO, especially considering that it's Heroic tier.  The benefit of becoming trained in a skill can be bumped to Adept Power to replace that thing you have there now, which frankly I find unwieldy and either barely-useful or obscenely broken depending on how it's applied.  I feel that if you want to suffer by picking two classes with different primary scores then just go suffer, MAD was an issue in 3.5 and finding more compatible combinations became easier as more classes were released.

Next up is the Paragon Multiclassing.  Many of those abilities you have listed are really just more powers, which personally I think aren't entirely appropriate, especially powers like Hunter's Mark and Sneak Attack which are significantly more powerful than Extra Damage Action.  I think the best one right now is the Fighter multiclass, but I'd replace the Fighter Weapon Talent with a free Armor Proficiency feat without the need to meet the ability score pre-requisites.  Other similar changes for more passive bonuses seems reasonable to me.

highbulp

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Re: Multiclassing that Works
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 01:01:04 PM »
Wow, I really like this. I think you hit the main requirement that multiclassing needs: a multi-class character needs to be able to get at-will powers from a different class.

I might have do it differently though: maybe make another Feat that allows you to swap an At-Will power? (say, available at 1st or 2nd level?). It's inspired a bit from SW Saga's requirement to take once Feat that allows you to use the Force, and then another that actually gives you Powers. It would also mean that Humans are the ones who are able to to a full-blow, at-will-swapping multiclass at first level, which feel nice to me. It's something to consider. As written, the first multi-class feat feels like a no-brainer to take.

I also really, really like that you get more from the other feats than just a Power swap (making them Skill Training++). But I'm not sure the +2 to a skill given by Novice Power is appropriate. That means that someone who takes Rogue as a secondary class would actually be better at a certain skill than someone who was a primary Rogue? But then I guess it doesn't stack with Skill Focus, so isn't like the best Sneak is someone who is only a partial Rogue. You might consider dropping it to +1 though, so it isn't just a "slight worse Skill Focus." But then I guess that might have been your goal. Again, I'm not sure on the balance--I guess we'd have to see it playtested!


Squirrelloid

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Re: Multiclassing that Works
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 01:51:24 PM »
First off, what really bugs me about the utility powers is that you can only swap one.  In other words, you will have 4 utility powers from your primary class, 1 from your secondary class, 1 from your paragon path, and 1 from your epic destiny.  Now, even if you go with Paragon Multiclassing and ignore the Epic Destiny (which arguably aren't even tied to classes) you wind up with 4 powers from your main class and 2 from your secondary class in a system that's supposed to break them about 50/50.

Therefore, my suggestion is to allow Acolyte Power to swap 2 powers starting at level 16.  Edge can be gained from wise power-swapping, so having one feat swap two powers is enough of a boost to make it an actually worthwhile feat IMO, especially considering that it's Heroic tier.  The benefit of becoming trained in a skill can be bumped to Adept Power to replace that thing you have there now, which frankly I find unwieldy and either barely-useful or obscenely broken depending on how it's applied.  I feel that if you want to suffer by picking two classes with different primary scores then just go suffer, MAD was an issue in 3.5 and finding more compatible combinations became easier as more classes were released.


I like this suggestion.  Thanks.  I think I'll steal it.

Quote
Next up is the Paragon Multiclassing.  Many of those abilities you have listed are really just more powers, which personally I think aren't entirely appropriate, especially powers like Hunter's Mark and Sneak Attack which are significantly more powerful than Extra Damage Action.  I think the best one right now is the Fighter multiclass, but I'd replace the Fighter Weapon Talent with a free Armor Proficiency feat without the need to meet the ability score pre-requisites.  Other similar changes for more passive bonuses seems reasonable to me.

Ultimately, my reasoning is that someone who is paragon multiclassed is equally a member of both classes, and thus should have the class features of both.  I honestly think that class features are worse than the better PP features, so I really don't see the balance issue.  (Yes, some of the PPs are crap, but we just ignore those).  I mean, how many tactical warlords are going to paragon multiclass instead of taking Battle Captain?  Not many.  How many wizards instead of taking Blood Mage or DO?  How many laser clerics instead of taking DO or Radiant Servant?  (I'm sure there are equally good melee cleric choices, I just haven't examined them closely).  If PPs are still competitive choices, it isn't overpowered by definition.

It really doesn't make sense to say 'i'm a rogue' without sneak attack, 'i'm a cleric' without channel divinity, or 'i'm a ranger' without a weapon path choice.  Paragon multiclassing is giving up specialization in a particular aspect of a class for becoming fully a member of another class.  And in a lot of cases, its hard to say 'this is the class ability the base class gets which isn't iconic', and generally these are the piddly abilities we aren't going to be bothered about someone else knowing.

Now, if you have specific suggestions which retain the feel of being both classes, I'm all ears.  But I'm not convinced its really that overpowered, because more abilities doesn't necessarily mean synergistic abilities. 

@highbulb
The initial multiclass feat is less of a no-brainer in my proposal because you have to give up something (an at-will power in your class).  While some builds/concepts will find a power in another class they really like, other builds won't want to swap an at-will.  And you'll notice I don't give you a choice - you must swap an at-will.  If you're going to belong to two classes, you better well act like it. 

And they're at-will powers, so theoretically they should all be balanced relative to each other.
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Omen of Peace

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Re: Multiclassing that Works
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 06:01:53 PM »
I generally like it but I wouldn't do things in exactly the same way.
- X-Codes' suggestion to allow 2 utility swaps is indeed good

- I think I'd merge Novice & Adept Power (i.e. 1 feat that lets you swap both an encounter and a daily power) and generally drop the skill training/bonuses (except from the original multiclass feat). Skill Training/Focus should not lose too much value.
I hadn't thought about anything like the special daily your Adept feat gives - I like it.

- I don't think I'd give *all* the class abilities via Paragon multiclassing. (Well, not that you do that either since as X-Codes pointed out you don't give out armor proficiencies - nor ritual casting.)
It allows you to choose your powers after all - always picking the best - while PPs generally have some lackluster abilities thrown in with good ones. I haven't made a detailed breakdown however.
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Fuzzy_Logic

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Re: Multiclassing that Works
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 01:35:03 AM »
I'm not sure I'd give out the at-wills quite so easily.  Yeah, the price you paid for Paragon multiclassing was exorbitant and almost never worth it... but occasionally it was.  Getting cross-class at-wills is legitimately powerful, and should require more than a feat's investment, if nnothing else to preserve individuality.  Do you really want to see

EVERY Fiendlock with Scorching Burst?

EVERY Blade Fighter with Riposte Strike?

EVERY Rogue with Twin Strike?

EVERY Tron Paladin with Righteous Brand?

Because you will...