Author Topic: Multiclassing:  (Read 3086 times)

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RelentlessImp

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Multiclassing:
« on: March 08, 2011, 11:56:56 AM »
Alright, so, I've been thinking about this for a while, and I've come to the following conclusion:

Level 6 is the perfect level to start multiclassing. Due to how BAB and Saves are set up, 6 levels in a class is the perfect breakpoint, at least if not using fractional BAB & Saves. Why?

Let's look at what level 6 gives you over the previous levels:

+1 BAB. No matter what your BAB is, you get +1 at level 6.
+1 all saves. No matter the progression, poor or good, you get +1 to every save at 6th level.

Every sixth level is the same (6, 12, 18). While this delays entry to most PrCs by a level or so, I believe the benefit is too large to ignore. So what would the problems be if multiclassing was enforced and the system reshaped to support it by making every class, base and PrC, 6 levels long?
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LordBlades

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2011, 12:14:43 PM »
BAB is overrated IMHO (both in general and in regard to this particular issue)

Many builds don't need BAB
Many others have ways of making BAB irrelevant (like Divine Power)
Others plan on only taking full BAB classes, so staying 1 level more in the base class is not beneficial at all to them (BAB wise)

Interesting point about saves though, was unaware of that ;)
Even if IMHO in most cases +1 to all saves is not worth delaying PrC features for a level, in builds that need a 'filler' PRC at the end, it might be worth taking your 6th base class level before entering that.

wotmaniac

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2011, 05:30:13 PM »
this is an observation that has not been lost on me.
So what would the problems be if multiclassing was enforced and the system reshaped to support it by making every class, base and PrC, 6 levels long?
the only issue I have with this is .... what's the point?  all you've really done is identify the basic economics of D&D character building.  it's all about opportunity cost, and instant gratification vs. delayed gratification.
opportunity cost is simply the relationship between scarcity and choice; where scarcity=class levels, and choice=what you do with those class levels.
Where choice is highly valued (which is often the case in 3.5), then simple economic theory dictates that you just let the player decide how he/she wants to spend those class levels -- your observation simply illustrates the scope of importance tied to that choice  :)

BAB is overrated IMHO (both in general and in regard to this particular issue)
meh ... a bit of a strawman, IMO:
Quote
Many builds don't need BAB
casters that don't use touch spells.  niche.
Quote
Many others have ways of making BAB irrelevant (like Divine Power)
even more niche: clerics of level 7+ ; it's big brother is level 9+ ; it's arcane equivalent is level 11+.  and all of them are short duration (without silly persist shenanigansacrobatics), which makes them even less useful.  hope your spell doesn't get disrupted/dispelled.
Quote
Others plan on only taking full BAB classes, so staying 1 level more in the base class is not beneficial at all to them (BAB wise)
rogue/monk/scout/ninja/any number of skillmonkey classes/PrCs?
Quote
Interesting point about saves though, was unaware of that ;)
Even if IMHO in most cases +1 to all saves is not worth delaying PrC features for a level, in builds that need a 'filler' PRC at the end, it might be worth taking your 6th base class level before entering that.
this is dependent on what PrC features you'll be gaining.  additionally, many times you'll also be gaining a class feature from your base class (or at least an upgrade to an existing one).  making this quite situational.
I'm not necessarily saying that you're "wrong" ..... I'm just pointing out the holes.  :shrug
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 05:32:01 PM by wotmaniac »

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Ikeren

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2011, 08:56:39 PM »
Re: Saves: Your first level of a PRC is offering at least +2 to a single save. Your level six is offering at most a +3, to each save. If you dump reflex (the crummiest save); you're trading fort for will or will for fort; each of which is acceptable depending on what needs a boost. If your PRC offers 2 good saves, taking it earlier is a good call.

Re: BAB: If you're not making 16 BAB or higher over 20 levels, you can get a skillful weapon (+2 bonus, 18000gp, available about level 10). Level 1-9, the difference between full BAB and half BAB is no more than 4 points. 4 points of to hit can be made up in a wide variety of ways (feats, items, spells, buffs, etcetera).
The 4th attack: It rarely will hit, but admittedly, is one saving grace of BAB.


They are tradeoffs, but I'd argue that most builds probably wouldn't be made or broken by 3-4 points of BAB --- even pure melees, who could make up with good class features, or spells.

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2011, 09:05:08 PM »
casters that don't use touch spells.  niche.
A +1 to hit is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, though.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2011, 09:26:22 PM »
casters that don't use touch spells.  niche.
A +1 to hit is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, though.
right, but doing that too much causes it to add up .....  non-full-bab 5/PrC1 5/PrC2 5/something 5 may put you down -4 -- while not huge, still can have a noticeable effect.

not to mention what happens when you start really going through class gymnastics ....

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I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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LordBlades

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2011, 11:17:50 AM »


BAB is overrated IMHO (both in general and in regard to this particular issue)
meh ... a bit of a strawman, IMO:
I was merely stating an opinion, I fail to see how an opinion, branded as such can be a strawman.

Quote
Many builds don't need BAB
casters that don't use touch spells.  niche.
That's not as niche as you think. Most full casters either don't rely on touch spells(since they are easy to counter) or have ways to make them hit when they matter (True Strike, Wraithstrike etc.)
 
Quote
Many others have ways of making BAB irrelevant (like Divine Power)
even more niche: clerics of level 7+ ; it's big brother is level 9+ ; it's arcane equivalent is level 11+.  and all of them are short duration (without silly persist shenanigansacrobatics), which makes them even less useful.  hope your spell doesn't get disrupted/dispelled.
Given. At the power level I usually play at, persistent Divine Power at undispellable caster levels is pretty common, but that might not be for everyone

Quote
Others plan on only taking full BAB classes, so staying 1 level more in the base class is not beneficial at all to them (BAB wise)
rogue/monk/scout/ninja/any number of skillmonkey classes/PrCs?  

I fail to see how mentioning builds that don't have full BAB has any impact on my statement that some builds only have full BAB classes.


I was not trying to invalidate RelentlessImp's statements, but merely point out they might not be as generalized as his post seems to imply
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 11:20:32 AM by LordBlades »

wotmaniac

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2011, 11:47:59 AM »


BAB is overrated IMHO (both in general and in regard to this particular issue)
meh ... a bit of a strawman, IMO:
I was merely stating an opinion, I fail to see how an opinion, branded as such can be a strawman.
fair enough.  I think that a better choice of words on my part should have been something along the lines of "I disagree with your rationale" or some-such.  no attack intended.

Quote
Quote
Many builds don't need BAB
casters that don't use touch spells.  niche.
That's not as niche as you think. Most full casters either don't rely on touch spells(since they are easy to counter) or have ways to make them hit when they matter (True Strike, Wraithstrike etc.)
around here? sure.  different experiences = different perceptions.
 
Quote
Quote
Many others have ways of making BAB irrelevant (like Divine Power)
even more niche: clerics of level 7+ ; it's big brother is level 9+ ; it's arcane equivalent is level 11+.  and all of them are short duration (without silly persist shenanigansacrobatics), which makes them even less useful.  hope your spell doesn't get disrupted/dispelled.
Given. At the power level I usually play at, persistent Divine Power at undispellable caster levels is pretty common, but that might not be for everyone
yes, YMMV.

Quote
Quote
Others plan on only taking full BAB classes, so staying 1 level more in the base class is not beneficial at all to them (BAB wise)
rogue/monk/scout/ninja/any number of skillmonkey classes/PrCs? 
I fail to see how mentioning builds that don't have full BAB has any impact on my statement that some builds only have full BAB classes.
wasn't really a build -- the "/" was meant in the "and/or" vein. maybe should have used commas or some-such.
also, I think there may have been some misinterpretation on my part .... I thought you were saying that if you're not playing a caster, then you must be playing a full-bab class.  my bad.  :facepalm   :blush

Quote
I was not trying to invalidate RelentlessImp's statements, but merely point out they might not be as generalized as his post seems to imply
yet another misinterpretation on my part.

Have at your bad self :P

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

veekie

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2011, 12:04:37 PM »
RE the touch spell matter, from what I've seen few casters are entirely without, but touch ACs are so low that a few points of BAB won't really make a difference unless it already has too high a touch AC for a caster to hit unaided.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2011, 09:13:31 PM »
RE the touch spell matter, from what I've seen few casters are entirely without, but touch ACs are so low that a few points of BAB won't really make a difference unless it already has too high a touch AC for a caster to hit unaided.
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[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

SeekingKnight

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2011, 11:13:53 PM »
Speaking of multiclassing.  How would one go about showing to an older generation of D&D players that multiclassing for melee is generally a good idea (if not something one is supposed to do)?

LordBlades

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2011, 04:38:00 AM »
Speaking of multiclassing.  How would one go about showing to an older generation of D&D players that multiclassing for melee is generally a good idea (if not something one is supposed to do)?

Have you tried pointing out how little do melee classes get after the 1st level? (compared to casters that get a whole new level of spells every other level.

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Re: Multiclassing:
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2011, 05:59:23 PM »
Show them the difference between fighter 3 and fighter 2/barbarian 1, and ask them which is better.
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