Author Topic: Old concept, new build.  (Read 3059 times)

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Old concept, new build.
« on: March 06, 2011, 07:47:34 PM »
One of my first 3.5e characters was a Tiefling Rogue, and honestly I kinda like the concept that went into him.  So much so that I'm actually looking to re-make him in a slightly better fashion than vanilla Rogue so that he can be playable in higher-tier games.  Here's some of what I'm looking for:

1) Dex- and Int-based: Good (6 or 8) skill points per level early on with good starting Int.  At later levels it's not as important to use classes with high Skill Points.  These two ability scores are going to be what any given character does best.

2) Minor casting ability: I've looked at the Shadowcaster, and can see a lot of potential there.  Getting 13th-level Shadowcaster capabilities and then picking mostly Apprentice and Initiate powers looks like a good way to go to get lots of cool abilities that fit with the character.  That said, mid-level Beguiler casting and/or Lesser/Greater Warlock invocations are also a way to go.  Sorcerers and Dread Necromancers are right out because they're Charisma-based, and I want to avoid too much MAD.  Wizard and Warmage are out because they don't fit at all thematically.

3) Decent melee capabilities: I think the most appropriate combat feats for this character would be Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, and Elusive Target (if possible, Rapid Blitz isn't a terrible addition), and I'd also like to be proficient in the Shortsword, Rapier, or a similar exotic weapon (which will be made Feycraft to allow for Dex to attacks).  Picking up a few SA dice for stuff like Craven and Staggering Strike would be nice as well. Ideally there will be something in my spellcasting that augments my melee attacks, too, although that's not needed.

4) Some kind of demonic tie-in.  Hellbred race is one possibility, as is Tiefling or Lesser Tiefling into Half-Fiend progression, although the latter seems to be pretty weak without LA Buyoff.

I was initially just going with a Swashbuckler/Rogue using the Arcane Stunt ACF, but that technically disqualifies the character from being able to take the Daring Outlaw feat (although I suppose I could ask a prospective DM for a houserule on that).  I also thought of Warlock/Rogue, but I can't think of any PrCs or feats that would make that sort of combination especially useful. Afterwards, I started looking at some sort of Rogue/Shadowcaster and thought about a potential Keeper of the Cerulean Sign build refluffed to be anti-Demon instead of anti-Abberation, but that would not only require houseruling to get into, but also seems to be way more spellcasting-oriented than I think I'm willing to go with.

So yeah, I'm just having a hard time putting together one solid build.  Any ideas from the CO folks?

Andion Isurand

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2011, 08:33:31 PM »
Perhaps going Beguiler (6 skill points & Int based spontaneous casting & relevant weapon proficiencies) into the Swiftblade PrC will play to the feats you suggested.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 08:38:55 PM by Andion Isurand »

ninjarabbit

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2011, 08:35:28 PM »
tiefling daring outlaw rogue2/swashbuckler3/assassin10/swashbuckler8 or rogue2/swashbuckler3/assassin8/swashbuckler10 with LA buyoff, pretty much gives you what you want with minor spellcasting and combat ability.

Mixster

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2011, 08:42:24 PM »
Also consider a master spellthief + SC + UM build. That thing can mix most of those things in there with Arcane Disciple (war).

It really depends on what levels you want it to be useful.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2011, 08:57:15 PM »
Perhaps going Beguiler (6 skill points & Int based spontaneous casting & relevant weapon proficiencies) into the Swiftblade PrC will play to the feats you suggested.
That's a nice one.

How about something like...

Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Swiftblade 10/Uncanny Trickster 3/(dip) 1

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to put into that dip.  It needs 3/4 BAB to get me to +16 BAB, although that's not all that important considering I'd be using Bounding Assault for attacks.  Some way to add Darkness or Deeper Darkness to the beguiler list would be nice, and even nicer would be adding Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells.  I can use the advanced learning I'll pick up by using Uncanny Trickster to advance Beguiler, but that's only for 1 spell.

RelentlessImp

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2011, 09:16:59 PM »
Tiefling Factotum. Use all your feats for Font of Inspiration (up til Int mod); drop your skill points into Iaijutsu Focus (Class Skills: Any). You get minor arcane spellcasting and can PrC into Chameleon if you want more. The biggest draw of the class is the sheer versatility of what the Inspiration Points you get can do.

...

And I'll now allow for JaronK to step to the floor to speak about Factotums and their equipment, including a hilarious unique item that he insists all rogue-types have.
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gorfnad

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2011, 09:57:07 PM »
2) Minor casting ability: I've looked at the Shadowcaster, and can see a lot of potential there.  Getting 13th-level Shadowcaster capabilities and then picking mostly Apprentice and Initiate powers looks like a good way to go to get lots of cool abilities that fit with the character.  That said, mid-level Beguiler casting and/or Lesser/Greater Warlock invocations are also a way to go.  Sorcerers and Dread Necromancers are right out because they're Charisma-based, and I want to avoid too much MAD.  Wizard and Warmage are out because they don't fit at all thematically.
Shadowcaster 5/ Assassin 3/ Noctumancer 7/ Arcane Trickster 5 (advancing Shadowcaster caster) - requires either the Spell Hand feat or DM fiat saying that Umbral Hand fundamental = Mage Hand

Rogue 3/ Shadowcaster 7/ Arcane Trickster 10 - Requires DM fiat saying Mysteries = Spells and Umbral Hand = Mage Hand. Really though it's quick fix and fits thematically so I think most DMs would go with it. Also Shadowcaster needs all the help it can get anyways.

3) Decent melee capabilities: I think the most appropriate combat feats for this character would be Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, and Elusive Target (if possible, Rapid Blitz isn't a terrible addition), and I'd also like to be proficient in the Shortsword, Rapier, or a similar exotic weapon (which will be made Feycraft to allow for Dex to attacks).  Picking up a few SA dice for stuff like Craven and Staggering Strike would be nice as well. Ideally there will be something in my spellcasting that augments my melee attacks, too, although that's not needed.
Rogue 3/ Warlock 6/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6/ Arcane Trickster (advancing Warlock casting) 5 - Feat requirements for Telflammar are Blind-Fight, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. Requires Spell Hand feat for Arcane Trickster (or some other source for Mage Hand). Requires Flee the Scene invocation for Telflammar Shadowlord. This basically turns you into Nightcrawler from XMen especially if you were planning to go Tiefling or Hellbred (add in the Eldritch Claws feat from Dragon #358 to complete the theme and give you a decent attack option).

Other builds:
Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Assassin 8/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6
Psychic Rogue or Lurk 14/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6
Lurk or Psychic Rogue 9/ Ebon Saint 5/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6
Psychic Rogue 5/ Elocater 10/ Telflammar Shadowlord 5
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 11:58:35 PM by gorfnad »

skydragonknight

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2011, 11:34:44 PM »
Factotum 8/Swordsage 2/Chameleon 10 would be decent if you can homebrew a variant Carmendine Monkish feat for the Swordsage's Wis to AC -> Int to AC and change the "Human" requirement of Able Learner to "Human-descended". Get the 2d6 sneak attack from Assassin's Stance and Dex to damage with Shadow Blade feat (sadly no Rapier, but Shortswords are a good choice). Sneak Attack qualifies you for Craven. Since Chameleons can get spells from pretty much anywhere, Hunter's Eye is a good choice for another +6d6 Sneak Attack.

There are mechanically stronger builds, I'm sure, but I kind of like this one for it's simplicity.
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JaronK

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2011, 11:42:51 PM »
And I'll now allow for JaronK to step to the floor to speak about Factotums and their equipment, including a hilarious unique item that he insists all rogue-types have.

Which item?  I tend to play lower wealth games where no one magic item is guaranteed, so not sure what you're thinking of here.  Novice Shadow Hands, maybe?  A Gnomish Quickrazor?  Neither one is unique...

Anyway, anyone asking for a Dex and Int based roguish character with minor casting is clearly asking for a Factotum, so yeah, that's what I'd recommend, possibly with a two level dip in Swordsage.  I wouldn't recommend more than maybe 3 Fonts of Inspiration... there are other more important feats to get and you end up losing out if you do it too much.

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2011, 12:04:23 AM »
Tooth of Leraje.

Quote from: Tome of Magic
Construction: The means of constructing teeth of Dahlver-Nar, if it was ever known, is lost. Each tooth of Dahlver-Nar is a unique magic item.
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vilenatas

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2011, 12:13:58 AM »
Beguiler2/Ruathar3/Mindbender1/Swiftblade10/Unseen Seer2/Beguiler+1/x1

Requires using Versatile/Heighten/Sanctum for Ruathar Early Entry, but you could retrain them later if you want.  Saves Beguiler Advanced Learning for later.  You can either dip Unseen Seer earlier to add Hunter's Eye to your list for Sneak Attack, or wait until later if there is some other divination spell that you really want.

If you want to go tiefling their is the Deepening Darkness feat from Races of Faerun I think that makes your Darkness SLA Deeper Darkness.


Andion Isurand

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2011, 12:24:24 AM »
If you can handle a change of favored class from Rogue to Sorcerer, you could take the Magic-Blooded template (Dragon 306) and move your Teifling's penalty from Charisma to Wisdom.

Then you could further focus on Intelligence by taking the Keen Intellect feat from Dragon 318 as your first level only feat.  With it, you may use your Intelligence Modifier instead of your Wisdom Modifier for Will saves, as well as Heal, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival checks...   effectively turning wisdom into your primary dump stat.

JaronK

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2011, 12:26:57 AM »
Tooth of Leraje.

Bah, I never said everyone has one, only that it's a very good idea to get one (if you plan on using a magic weapon) if you can do so.  It's hardly necessary.  If a caster in the party can cast Chained Greater Magic Weapon, there's not even a point.  I've certainly never claimed all Rogue types have it.  Heck, many Rogue types (Beguilers, for example) wouldn't even want it.

Though IIRC Magic Item Compendium changed the rarity of those items (which makes sense... why are they unique and not artifacts?).

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Re: Old concept, new build.
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2011, 05:42:43 AM »
Tiefling Factotum. Use all your feats for Font of Inspiration (up til Int mod); drop your skill points into Iaijutsu Focus (Class Skills: Any). You get minor arcane spellcasting and can PrC into Chameleon if you want more. The biggest draw of the class is the sheer versatility of what the Inspiration Points you get can do.
Nice, but my big gripe with Factotum for this character is that all of the magic stunts are limited to 1/day.  That might work for some characters who want a diverse set of spells, but I'm looking to use a small, thematic set of abilities repeatedly.  Beguiler/Swiftblade works better for that.

Beguiler2/Ruathar3/Mindbender1/Swiftblade10/Unseen Seer2/Beguiler+1/x1

Requires using Versatile/Heighten/Sanctum for Ruathar Early Entry, but you could retrain them later if you want.  Saves Beguiler Advanced Learning for later.  You can either dip Unseen Seer earlier to add Hunter's Eye to your list for Sneak Attack, or wait until later if there is some other divination spell that you really want.
I strongly prefer Beguiler class abilities (especially when I get 3 feats along with it) to Ruathar ones, and with Uncanny Trickster I have a late-level advanced learning regardless.  As for Hunter's Eye, I don't have faith in sneak attack as damage output at all.

If you want to go tiefling their is the Deepening Darkness feat from Races of Faerun I think that makes your Darkness SLA Deeper Darkness.
It doesn't actually turn it into Deeper Darkness, but it does increase it's effective level to 3, and give 2 extra uses.  That said, I am looking to pick up a few feats from DotU.