Author Topic: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?  (Read 2676 times)

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Bloody Initiate

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What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« on: March 06, 2011, 05:27:10 PM »
I know it sucks, but I don't know all the reasons why it sucks.

I was hoping to be educated.

Often when I consult the books for these things I find that all of the information isn't in one place, and that I don't know where to look for all of it (Similar Example: Negative Energy Death = Wight isn't in the PBH, but everyone seems to agree that's what happens. I accept the consensus, but I don't know where that info is.).

In homebrew when I give a creature spell resistance I always include "Can raise or lower spell resistance as a free action even if it's not its turn." However that is apparently an insufficient fix.
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Bozwevial

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2011, 05:36:19 PM »
Well, part of the problem is that the numbers have to be fine-tuned so that your SR isn't completely useless or completely overwhelming. Even in the latter case, it'll probably hurt you more than it'll hurt the casters, because there are a fair few spells that just completely ignore SR, and you're making it harder to be healed or buffed.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2011, 06:24:55 PM »
Let's say you're knocked down to -9 and dying, and your cleric buddy casts heal on you.

What happens when your SR kicks in and tells your buddy, 'hahahahaNO'?
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Bauglir

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2011, 06:50:28 PM »
In rough order of importance:

1. Spells that fix problems you have are almost universally subject to SR, which means that Lycanthromancer's example above is a thing that happens.

2. Instantaneous Conjurations ignore SR. This was a fluff decision that makes a large number of spells that were already good even better. A side effect is that magic immunity and the like is not the kind of defense it should have been, making a lot of monsters that have it over-CR'd.

3. Likewise, spells that affect your surroundings can still fuck you up; no matter how high your SR is, grease can still mess up your day.

4. The numbers are really hard to manage because of CL boosters and short-term duration effects that give ludicrous bonuses to SR checks. It's difficult to come up with a number that won't be impossible for a Wizard who isn't trying, but still allow a Wizard who is trying to have a chance to fail.

5. A personal problem on my part is that it's completely binary, and because of the above problem, that leads to problems. It's really difficult to have an SR value that matters; your options are either it is ignored (it's easily overcome or the player bypasses it with SR: No) or it shuts down an entire archetype (which isn't fun, especially given that it becomes more or less ubiquitous past level 15 or so, at the latest). This is a problem that can be dealt with by resolving the others, however; the impact is minimal if, over the course of a battle, the caster is likely to get at least a few spells off.
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veekie

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2011, 07:13:32 PM »
5 is the dealbreaker personally, but then AC suffers the same fundamental flaw.
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veekie

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2011, 01:59:00 PM »
Yeah, that was bad from the start. No real neat way around the binary factors being the determining ones.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2011, 02:02:27 PM »
The best non-binary system I've seen for dealing with AC is for a MMO. You can get away with it scaling the effect when it is a computer calculating the damage. It just isn't practical when a person is doing it. The same with SR. I would love for it to be a % effect but that only really works on damage and other things with a quantifiable effect. How would a 75% effective charm person work?
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Kajhera

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2011, 02:22:12 PM »
The best non-binary system I've seen for dealing with AC is for a MMO. You can get away with it scaling the effect when it is a computer calculating the damage. It just isn't practical when a person is doing it. The same with SR. I would love for it to be a % effect but that only really works on damage and other things with a quantifiable effect. How would a 75% effective charm person work?

Makes their attitude indifferent and gives you a -5 on the Charisma checks to get them to do stuff?

Bloody Initiate

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2011, 02:31:28 PM »
Thank you for the responses, they were helpful.
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veekie

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2011, 02:36:57 PM »
Well, Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance exists, as an alternative to binary defense scaling. But anything more comprehensive would require a rewrite of well...everything.

And then you ask why you call it D&D. :P
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

AtomicKitKat

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2011, 10:18:58 AM »
I wholly approve of granular effectiveness for spells. Then again, I was upset when D&D left the realm of nerds with mental calculators able to figure out exactly what they needed to roll to hit Armour Class 0.  ;)

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2011, 04:51:22 PM »
I suppose you could have a bit of a range of effect for SR...

 like, in the SR to SR+10 range you just autosucceed on the save, rather than just saying no to the spell.
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Cal349

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Re: What's wrong with Spell Resistance?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2011, 05:15:28 PM »
My main problem with SR is that it's either completely useless or you're practically immune to magic. If I can't easily get high SR, I'll ignore it entirely (depending on the level of the game).