Author Topic: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5  (Read 5294 times)

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RelentlessImp

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So, everyone knows D&D's deities are woefully shitty. Here's a proposed system to change deities for the better.

Discarding the Class Progression System
Only DR 0 (Demigods) progress by class. Achieving DR 1 or higher moves a deity into the new progression system.

Upon gaining 1 or more Divine Ranks, a deity begins acquiring virtual HD, much in the same way that older than Great Wyrm dragons do. However, they gain 20 HD at a time per Divine Rank - each 20 counting for 20 levels in a different class.

What do they gain from these virtual HD? They gain: Special abilities, class features, hitdice, saves, and any spellcasting. BAB is added as a Divine bonus to their attack, so they gain between 10 and 20 attack bonus per divine rank. Half of that BAB gained in this manner is translated directly to untyped damage to all of their attacks (including damage spells and ability damage/drain, but not that caused by rider effects such as poison or disease), and all of the attacks affected are now considered [Force] effects. Also, every deity gains a Divine bonus to their AC equal to 1/2 all the BAB gained from their virtual HD.

All deities add their casting classes, either from the old progression or their new virtual hitdice, together to determine their total casting level for all spells. They also add [Divine Rank*2] as a bonus to their caster level.

Deities are never automatically hit on a natural 20, though these still continue to threaten criticals - which deities are no longer immune to. Hell, if you can freaking hit them, you deserve it.

For each Divine Rank, they also gain 3+CHA mod Salient Divine Abilities.

No deity may have 20 character levels.

Example Changed Deities

Zeus
Barbarian 20
Large Outsider
Divine Rank 19
Hit Dice: 20d12+240 (Bbn) + 20d6 (V Cleric) + 20d10 (V Fighter) + 340d8 (V Outsider) (3,520hp)
Casts as a 20th level Cleric with a caster level of 58.
Has 171 Salient Divine Abilities, as befits an Overgod. Of course, given that this is Zeus, most of these are taken up by shit like Seduce Woman As a Goose and Never Pay Alimony.
All of his attacks gain a +360 Divine attack bonus and a +180 untyped bonus to their damage, making his full attack routine look like this:
+10 shocking burst hades-bane lightning bolt +425/+420/+415/+410 (2d6+217).

He also has a +180 Divine bonus to AC, nevermind what he's actually using for armor.


I feel this change is ridiculous, but it also puts deities beyond the grasps of mortals - something that could have been done if WotC had never statted the damn things. Anyone like these changes?
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veekie

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2011, 08:04:49 PM »
Hmm, I personally favor having the capacity to make godhood itself independent of epic power. So you can have a 1HD Greater God(with some bonus HD from divinity) for example, who would gain divine traits, plus divine abilities. Sort of a variable CR template.

The 'gods are in the ELH' option removes them from common play, which isn't bad of course, for classic fantasy, but if you're going oriental and using Small Gods(the least of which are barely distinguishable from Fey and Elementals), the system leaves something to be desired.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2011, 08:22:23 PM »
I don't care how you do it, I just want to be able to punch them in the face... like thor from marvel comics.
I want to start doing that at level 21. Maybe even level 20 for divine rank 0,
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2011, 09:59:43 PM »
Too much. With this system they're untouchable by level 50s. When do you want to start killing gods? Around level 20?

skydragonknight

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2011, 10:12:45 PM »
Deities ALWAYS get Saving Throws and Spell Resistance.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Midnight_v

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2011, 10:24:50 PM »
Too much. With this system they're untouchable by level 50s. When do you want to start killing gods? Around level 20?
Honestly yeah...
Cause I've found that the majority of games have a small lifespan that means you come down at 20 most likely, and even there I find its annoying to outfit the pc i'm playing. Though at that level I want to be just about able to wrestle hercules or some such. Again not unlike the comic books... actually non unlike greek mythology, in the battle for troy certain gods got injured hell I think it was ares! So yeah basically that.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2011, 10:55:45 PM »
Quite honestly, Deities aren't stupid enough to be killed easily. They themselves probably overthrew the previous pantheon and destroyed any reference to it in written form. You're not gong to fight Deities...you're going to fight their avatars. And if you can beat one of those, expect the deity to make divine phone calls to its allies and fight multiple gods at once, because if you're that powerful without divinity the god's pool buddies ain't going to let you capture the god's essence and become a threat to them as well.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

oslecamo

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2011, 11:25:32 PM »
I feel this change is ridiculous, but it also puts deities beyond the grasps of mortals - something that could have been done if WotC had never statted the damn things. Anyone like these changes?
That's... Just completely redudant. If you want your gods to be untouchable, then don't give them stats. What's the point of just tackling them an hundred levels, half of them spellcasting? That's simply pointless masochism. The party loses. Point.

On the other hand, people want to slay gods. So the Deity and Demigods ones provide something usefull. They're defeatable whitout the party needing to level up to 100. And then they can be tweaked as needed for diferent groups by simple feat changing and clever equipment selection/tactics.

Not to mention DMs who don't even use Deities and Demigods (a 3.0 book) and simply pick powerfull creatures as their campaign gods if they want the players to defeat them when they reach epic levels.

And like Veekie pointed out, some people want gods as little more than glorified spirits/mortals. Eberron has those, with some CR 15 undead girl being worshiped as a god and somehow granting spells whitout divine ranks.

veekie

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2011, 11:28:48 PM »
Yeah, I was thinking of having Divinity as a template granting divine powers(mostly portfolio specific) and also granting outsider HD to deities below a certain CR. Deities who're already personally powerful just get their portfolio related powers out of their ranks.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Jasuhn

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2011, 11:04:04 PM »
I had an issue where PC's wanted to take on a god.  Shar.  I looked at her stats and saw she was pretty unimpressive for a goddess of magic, given how well equiped the PCs were.  Then I realized she's a freaking goddess of magic.  And gave her a more diety appropriate set of gear, including a meta maximize rod for her salient abilities, and poof, that's a fight that will make PCs respect the power of a rank 18 diety.

Just give your gods gear like a player character would use and they'll toughen right up.

Hida Reju

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2011, 04:59:23 AM »
Look up the old Pre D&D WoTC product the Primal Order and use that. It was the best source book I ever picked up.

Basically what separates gods from mortals is Primal power. Having even one point of primal power makes you unkillable by mortals. You will simply reform a new avatar body after a time with your actual power unaffected.

Shame it got caught in legal hell or it would be still sold today.

veekie

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2011, 05:17:58 AM »
I think being unkillable is part of the whole problem of deities though.
Especially since very very few mythological gods are unkillable.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Kajhera

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Re: Making Deities Suck Less: A Semi-Classless System for Gods in 3.5
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2011, 10:29:40 AM »
Hmm... this system lets you punch rank 1 deities without any problems aside from perhaps numerous salient divine abilities.

There's only like 100 divine abilities though, and I doubt most deities would want all of them. ... What is a deity with +12 Charisma and 10 divine ranks supposed to do?

Fewer salient divine abilities, please. Or homebrew up a few hundred.