Author Topic: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!  (Read 15274 times)

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oslecamo

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2011, 09:03:02 PM »
Umm, no. Infinite GP to buy items costs spells known which is a limited resource. Or you can buy items which can make an infinite GP slowly, if you sacrifice your GP  :rollseyes. Closed loop.
You only need one spell known (flesh to salt) and then spam it. Well worth the effort for acess to all the sorceror/wizard list. So it's only limited by your number of spells per day, in wich the sorceror actually has the advantage.

And making your own is superior to purchasing, if Experience is A River is in play.
Not when you have infinite GP loops. Specially because when you're burning all your spelll slots mass producing salt cows, you don't really have much left to go adventuring on the same day.

Reiterating, you can make items that give you options, buts it harder for you to get the needed feats and spells known. Buying them works, but you're still shafted by Wizards being better at it.
In this case, they aren't. Both go to the market and start buying cows and salting them. Sorceror will salt more cows. Then wizard needs to go home craft his stuff (at the staggering speed of one scroll per day or 1000 GP per day for magic items). Each salted cow is however worth roughly 3000 GP. So again, 3000 GP per salted cow wich the wizard will need at least 3 days to convert into items, while the sorceror will need 3 seconds in magic market.

The sorceror in two days has more than double the wizard's gold (thanks to more slots), so he can buy even more scrolls, and he level up faster as an extra bonus. The wizard crafter will be quickly left behind in total treasure.

All at the cost of a single spell known for the sorceror.

The sorceror is a much better cash machine than the wizard with this loop. He doesn't need the feats or anything else, and by the time the wizard has finished crafting all his stuff with his extra gold the sorceror will have already ended the campaign and probably started a new one.

skydragonknight

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2011, 09:47:59 PM »
The sorceror is a much better cash cow than the wizard with this loop. He doesn't need the feats or anything else, and by the time the wizard has finished crafting all his stuff with his extra gold the sorceror will have already ended the campaign and probably started a new one.

Fix'd.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2011, 10:41:14 PM »

Considering they're already Tier 2, why bother with more power? Taking a bit of power away but making their theme stronger would be much more interesting.
I think the point is becase they get shafted compared to wizards. Since they come off as a weaker wizard no one's happy with that. Even if we make the "No loop rule" the sorceror still kinda pales fixing its them doesn't ease the mechnical emptiness.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2011, 11:37:14 PM »
I personally think Wizards should be more like Psions and have their best spells be accessible only if you specialize in that school or burn a feat.

Sorcerers would be unrestricted, having their slower progression and fewer spells known as their balancing point.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 11:40:11 PM by skydragonknight »
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Solo

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2011, 11:39:48 PM »
If WotC implimented that, then all your bonus specialization spells would be the damage dealing ones.

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skydragonknight

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2011, 11:42:25 PM »
If WotC implimented that, then all your bonus specialization spells would be the damage dealing ones.

Yeah...they're bad at figuring out what the best spells are.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2011, 12:08:52 AM »
All of this has inspired me to do a sorceror rewrite. Until this thread I never knew just how annoying the "Fixes" wotc has put in. Conceptually, the sorceror isn't bad and actually very cool in someways but wow has it be maltreated.
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veekie

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2011, 02:02:19 PM »
All of this has inspired me to do a sorceror rewrite. Until this thread I never knew just how annoying the "Fixes" wotc has put in. Conceptually, the sorceror isn't bad and actually very cool in someways but wow has it be maltreated.
Awesome to see a new take on it.
The sorceror as it's supposed to be is probably sorta like an amalgam of the warlock(innate abilities related to their power origins, i.e. see like a devil) and the sorceror(spontaneous casting off a limited list). Then you give them some utility stuff related to their heritage as extra spells known.
Possibly restrict or raise the level of certain spells based on heritage.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 02:06:24 PM by veekie »
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2011, 05:39:48 PM »
Whatever you do, implement a system wherein a sorcerer automatically gets the Heighten Spell feat, and can use a lower level spell to cast a higher level version of that spell.

For instance, take Summon Monster 1 as a spell known and use a 2nd level slot to cast Summon Monster II.

That's another problem with the sorcerer, is needing multiple similar spells known to cover the range of higher powered effects on different levels. Which sucks, for obvious reasons.

Also, don't sorcerers only have like 1 spell per day per level more than a focused specialist? And wizards get things a level earlier, meaning that sorcerer is WAAAAY behind on high-sodium beef when he gets regular access to this trick.
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oslecamo

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2011, 05:47:40 PM »
Also, don't sorcerers only have like 1 spell per day per level more than a focused specialist?

Sorcerers still retain acess to all schools tough, while a focused specialist needs to ban 3, so after banning enchantment and evocation, you still need to ban necromancy, illusion or abjuration (as nobody in their right mind will ban transmutation or conjuration), losing nice things.

And heck, if you're bringing focused specialist, screw it, I'm bringing dragonwrought kobold to speed up the sorcerer progression and put him ahead in CL matters.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2011, 05:49:44 PM »
The Metamagic Specialist ACF should have come standard with the Sorcerer class. It confuses me how extra dumb they were about metamagic...
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veekie

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2011, 05:09:24 AM »
What do you mean metamagic isn't awesome?!
Maximum damage dice!
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2011, 05:27:14 AM »
What do you mean metamagic isn't awesome?!
Maximum damage dice!
Nah, maximum damage dice would have fireballs that dealt like 10d20.
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AtomicKitKat

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2011, 09:41:55 AM »
Hmm. How about this?

A Sorcerer picks a Domain at level 1. Whenever he can cast spells of that level, he immediately gains the Domain spell for that level as a spell known(in addition to the one for levelling). This also allows for "thematic" Sorcery(ie, a Fire Domain Sorcerer, Death Domain, etc.). Not the Domain power, obviously. ;)

Kajhera

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2011, 09:52:26 AM »
Hmm. How about this?

A Sorcerer picks a Domain at level 1. Whenever he can cast spells of that level, he immediately gains the Domain spell for that level as a spell known(in addition to the one for levelling). This also allows for "thematic" Sorcery(ie, a Fire Domain Sorcerer, Death Domain, etc.). Not the Domain power, obviously. ;)

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veekie

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2011, 10:21:46 AM »
Actually hell, as a player I wouldn't mind losing some spells per day for a domain, with spells added directly to the knownlist and domain power directly granted.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

AtomicKitKat

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2011, 10:22:52 AM »
See, if you give the Sorcerer the Domain power, the Cleric gets pissed off. :p

veekie

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2011, 10:24:23 AM »
Psh, the cleric without domains is hardly any weaker or less versatile.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Midnight_v

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2011, 10:56:28 AM »
Whatever you do, implement a system wherein a sorcerer automatically gets the Heighten Spell feat, and can use a lower level spell to cast a higher level version of that spell.

For instance, take Summon Monster 1 as a spell known and use a 2nd level slot to cast Summon Monster II.

That's another problem with the sorcerer, is needing multiple similar spells known to cover the range of higher powered effects on different levels. Which sucks, for obvious reasons.

Also, don't sorcerers only have like 1 spell per day per level more than a focused specialist? And wizards get things a level earlier, meaning that sorcerer is WAAAAY behind on high-sodium beef when he gets regular access to this trick.
Quote
The Metamagic Specialist ACF should have come standard with the Sorcerer class. It confuses me how extra dumb they were about metamagic...
I'll try to implement these things. . . I think I'm getting what lycantromancer is saying.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Sorcerers get SHAFTED!
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2011, 04:32:50 PM »
Take Summon Monster I as a spell known. If you use a 2nd, 3rd, 5th, or 9th spell slot to cast Summon Monster, you get Summon Monster II, III, V, or IX instead.

Something similar applies with other spells that reference another spell for its effect. Magic Circle vs Evil also allows you to cast vs Good, Law, and Chaos, and so on.

Of course, that gets freakishly good after awhile. Polymorph, anyone?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]