Author Topic: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.  (Read 9898 times)

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Aldrick

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Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« on: March 02, 2011, 01:58:53 AM »
Hey guys - I'm new to the forums, and after spending some time doing searches I'm confident that this place can help me out.

I'm about to enter a campaign that's likely going to be filled with political intrigue, puzzles, and combat.  My character will be the Prince - leading a group of allies on a suicide mission, all the while plotting and scheming to overthrow his father and take the throne for himself.  All characters in the campaign - mine included - will be evil. 

Since my character is a Prince, I've decided to steer him toward being highly competent in political intrigue and social settings.  As a result, his "primary" class will be a Bard with Perform [Oratory].  However, this campaign is using gestalt rules.  I've never played with this group or this DM in particular so it's difficult to gauge many things, and thus I'm worried about not having the things that I need in order to be effective.  As such, I require a character with some degree of flexibility outside of merely being socially persuasive.

There are some unique rules that apply:
1.  It should be noted that the DM is not afraid to say no to things, and is highly focused on balance.  So attempts to abuse the system / twist the rules are out. 
2.  The DM has homebrew rules regarding social skills, and likely social powers as well - which more-or-less brings them under DM fiat.  (In other words, don't expect Diplomacy to work as written in the rules - which immediately rules out a balanced Diplomancer build.)
3.  Although I've stated it above, it bares repeating, this campaign will be an evil campaign.  My character will almost certainly be Neutral Evil.  This opens up some options and closes others.
4.  The character will be a Human - no template allowed.
5.  The character must have bard levels - it's critical to his persona.
6.  The character cannot be part of a class that requires a deity for worship.  (One of the other characters in the group will be a Ur-Priest whose attempting to build an atheist cult devoted to freeing mortals from the influence of the gods.  The Prince is a member of that cult.)
7.  The campaign will start at level ten, and assuming interest remains MAY go all the way into epic levels.
8.  The following gestalt rules apply:
     A)  We may only qualify for a PrC from one side of our gestalt build.
     B)  We are not allowed to take two PrC's at the same time.
     C)  We are allowed dual progression classes only on the same side of the gestalt build.
9.  We are using 28 point buy during character creation.
10. The Leadership Feat is not allowed.
11. Our characters have 49,000 GP as our starting funds.  We are not allowed to spend more than 12,000 GP on a single item.
12.  The biggest stumbling block I've encountered, more than anything else is the book restriction.  We're limited to the core rulebooks (PHB, MM1, DMG), and are allowed TWO other books while constructing our characters.  We are also allowed one homebrew selection, though the DM has the right to deny or approve this at his personal whim.

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2011, 02:36:58 AM »
For possible class combinations Bard/Sorcerer is standard Core and allows you to use your 2 free books and single homebrew option on something else.

If you are looking for versitility then I  would highly suggest Factotum from Dungeonscape. Since it is gestalt I would almost require that you do not PrC out of Factotum.
The sheer ammount of versitility gained from Factotum alone will give you a huge ammount of flexibility, both in spells and in skills. Plus the ability to add your Factotum level to any trained skilled 1/day per skill will help net you crazy political powers. (Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff, ect....)

Bard 20 || Factotum 20 is simple and standard. But we can do so much more.....

Using Dungeonscape & Races of Destiny as your two alotted books gives us.....
Bard 5/Chameleon 10/Bard 5 || Factotum 20
* High number of skill points and ALL skills as class skills.
* Ability to cast up to 6th level Arcane spells from ANY list.
* Ability to cast up to 6th level Divine spells from ANY list!
* Ability to cast up to  8 arcane spells of 7th level or lower as SLA's & you can switch the chosen spells out every day. (Also SLA's ignore material components which opens up sooo many doors.)
* A floating bonus feat that you can change every day.
* Capability to add +6 to two stats each day.
* Cunning Brilliance (If you get this far you now get to gloat and steal any EX class ability you want for 1 min/day.)

Another option that focuses more on your Bardic aspect is by using the Complete Arcane & Complete Mage.

Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/Sublime Chord 10 || Warlock 20
* 24 hour self buffs from Warlock reduce your need for certain utility spells.
* Warlock gives you some damage dealing capabilities as well as several useful utility funcitons. (The level 12 ability can make you a lot of money if you know how to "offer" your unique services.)
* Beguiling Influence (+6 unamed bonus to Diplomacy/Intimidate/Bluff)  :smirk
* 10th level Bardic casting thanks to Lyric Thaumaturge.
* Essentially you only need 2 major attributes. Charisma/Intelligence.
*
* 4th-9th level spells thanks to Sublime Chord
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X-Codes

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2011, 02:58:48 AM »
A straight-up Bard 20 || Fighter 20 with the appropriate archery feats can put a serious hurt on people with Manyshot.  If you want to go the melee route, then consider adding the PHB II as one of your sources.  You can go Robilar's Gambit -> Overpowering Attack in melee and get Bardic Knack for all skills-oriented situations (grab 1 rank in all trained-only skills to make use of Bardic Knack).  You also get some solid defensive options like Steadfast Determination.

Bester

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2011, 03:42:22 AM »
A straight-up Bard 20 || Fighter 20 with the appropriate archery feats can put a serious hurt on people with Manyshot.  If you want to go the melee route, then consider adding the PHB II as one of your sources.  You can go Robilar's Gambit -> Overpowering Attack in melee and get Bardic Knack for all skills-oriented situations (grab 1 rank in all trained-only skills to make use of Bardic Knack).  You also get some solid defensive options like Steadfast Determination.

Complete Champion for knowledge devotion and travel devotion and say you are stealing the powers of the gods you so despise.  I'd also consider strait Factotum//Bard (you ignore spell resistance next level!) with dungeonscape and complete champion for this reason.  Also, make sure Font of Inspiration is available if you go Factotum.  Explain to the dm that it should have been in the book.  If not, use cunning knowledge on the knowledge devotion check and all other IP on surge.

Spell Compendium is also a solid choice for a book if you choose a full caster for the other side.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 03:44:44 AM by Bester »

Aldrick

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2011, 04:50:56 AM »
You guys are awesome.  You've given me so many ideas that I didn't even consider.

I've never played a Factotum before (or seen one played by someone else).  I have two personal limitations:  The first is that I normally play in games that are under tenth level, and thus not only is my knowledge limited, I'm worried about being crushed by casters.  The second is that I don't normally plan out this far ahead, and I'm trying to plan out to at least level 15 - if not level 20 - I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by the options.  The irony is that I'd have likely felt more at ease if things were limited to just core.  Most of my energy has been focused toward 'What class best helps me counter X?' 

Anyway, I don't want to ramble.  I just wanted everyone to know that this was the direction I was approaching things mentally, and the reason I needed objective and experienced assistance.

I'm reading up on the Factotum.  I liked the idea of the Bard 5/Chameleon 10/Bard 5 || Factotum 20 - I'm going to dig deeper into that.

However, based on the group make-up so far, it appears that we're going to have plenty of folks to fill the meatshield role.  If I decided to go more of a caster, how viable is Bard / Wizard as a gestalt option?  It's not as synergistic as going with Sorcerer, but it gives a bit more flexibility.  If I decided to go the obvious route (Bard / Sorcerer gestalt) what would be the best PrC's to take to maximize such a characters potential?

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2011, 05:10:43 AM »
I think the major problem with either Bard/Wizard or Bard/Sorcerer is that you have a poor Fortitude save.  That's a really tough sacrifice to make in gestalt.

If you really wanted to go ahead with that idea, then consider this option:

Bard 6/War Chanter 10/Bard +4 || Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Wizard +10/Archmage 4

Leave your Charisma in the 14ish range, and instead go for high Intelligence and generally respectable physical stats.  Use your Bard spellcasting for common buffs (Haste), generally awesome spells (Silent Image), and utility spells (Glibness), but avoid offensive spells (especially if they allow saving throws).  Wizard side does the heavy caster lifting.  Your book picks should be Complete Arcane (Collegiate Wizard, Chain Spell, Persistent Spell, Sculpt Spell) and either Spell Compendium or Magic Item Compendium.  With PHB + Complete Arcane, you probably don't *need* Spell Compendium, especially if you're going to get access to more sources after creation, and there are a lot of really nice items in the Magic Item Compendium.

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« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 05:13:24 AM by X-Codes »

JaronK

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2011, 07:13:00 AM »
I'd go with Bard/Sublime Chord on one side and Sorcerer/Binder/Anima Mage on the other.  That uses ToM and Complete Arcane as your extra books and gives you a heck of a lot of casting power to work with as you go up in levels... and endless flexibility.

Factotum is always solid, but it's Int based which doesn't work so well with Charisma casters like Bards. 

JaronK

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2011, 07:31:24 AM »
Consider Bard on one side and Master Spellthief + Wizard + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus on the other side.

Or even, Divine Bard//Cleric (choose an ideal).

You could always do
Warblade 5/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/anything 3//(Savage) Bard 20

+1 to The bard/chameleon//Factotum though.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2011, 07:48:08 AM »
Maybe Bard 4/Druid 4/Rogue 2/Sublime Chord 1-2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8-9 on one side? On the other it could be something to get lots of skill points or more versatility, like Warlock.

Consider Bard on one side and Master Spellthief + Wizard + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus on the other side.

Or even, Divine Bard//Cleric (choose an ideal).

You could always do
Warblade 5/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/anything 3//(Savage) Bard 20

+1 to The bard/chameleon//Factotum though.
That would need more then 2 books and UA, which probably won't be allowed by that GM. :/
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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2011, 07:54:34 AM »
I'd go with Bard/Sublime Chord on one side and Sorcerer/Binder/Anima Mage on the other.  That uses ToM and Complete Arcane as your extra books and gives you a heck of a lot of casting power to work with as you go up in levels... and endless flexibility.

Factotum is always solid, but it's Int based which doesn't work so well with Charisma casters like Bards.  

JaronK
Doesn't go too well with the PrC limitations of gestalt though. Well, at least unless you only take a few levels of Sublime Chord...

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2011, 07:59:12 AM »
Maybe Bard 4/Druid 4/Rogue 2/Sublime Chord 1-2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8-9 on one side? On the other it could be something to get lots of skill points or more versatility, like Warlock.

Consider Bard on one side and Master Spellthief + Wizard + Sublime Chord + Ultimate Magus on the other side.

Or even, Divine Bard//Cleric (choose an ideal).

You could always do
Warblade 5/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/anything 3//(Savage) Bard 20

+1 to The bard/chameleon//Factotum though.
That would need more then 2 books and UA, which probably won't be allowed by that GM. :/

Unless you consider UA homebrew. Anyway the Savage Bard was just flavour and could be skipped.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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JaronK

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2011, 08:21:37 AM »
Doesn't go too well with the PrC limitations of gestalt though. Well, at least unless you only take a few levels of Sublime Chord...

I was figuring something like Binder 1/Sorcerer 4/Anima Mage 5/Sorcerer +10//Bard  10/Sublime Chord 10.  Enough binder/anima mage to get free metamagics sometimes and have a decent selection of vestiges to play with, but you're not going all the way.  If you used early entry tricks you could get a bit more Anima Mage (up to 8 levels of the class).  And you could always finish the class once you're epic.

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2011, 10:00:12 AM »
Doesn't go too well with the PrC limitations of gestalt though. Well, at least unless you only take a few levels of Sublime Chord...

I was figuring something like Binder 1/Sorcerer 4/Anima Mage 5/Sorcerer +10//Bard  10/Sublime Chord 10.  Enough binder/anima mage to get free metamagics sometimes and have a decent selection of vestiges to play with, but you're not going all the way.  If you used early entry tricks you could get a bit more Anima Mage (up to 8 levels of the class).  And you could always finish the class once you're epic.

JaronK
Sucks not to have the capstone ability of Anima Mage though. You already get 9th level spells from Sorcerer and all the action economy shenanigans mean the second bunch of 9s is not quite as useful. Personally I would go for 10 levels of Anima Mage for all the Binder goodies (say, Haures and Zceryll), extra metamagic and the amazing capstone. Four levels of Sublime Chord would be very, very good though.

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JaronK

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2011, 10:04:21 AM »
Sucks not to have the capstone ability of Anima Mage though. You already get 9th level spells from Sorcerer and all the action economy shenanigans mean the second bunch of 9s is not quite as useful. Personally I would go for 10 levels of Anima Mage for all the Binder goodies (say, Haures and Zceryll), extra metamagic and the amazing capstone. Four levels of Sublime Chord would be very, very good though.

True.  If you're getting that much Bard, then Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades is VERY advisable.

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2011, 10:26:37 AM »
Thanks everyone for all their help.  I've been reading up on the Factotum, and overall I believe the Bard 5/Chameleon 10/Bard 5 || Factotum 20 - fits the group and character fairly well.  We have an assortment of meatshields and casters.  What we lack is a really good skill monkey, and the Prince's ability to quickly adapt to any given situation could be one of his signature traits.

I've submitted the PrC and Factotum to the DM for approval.  I've also asked to take - as my home brew selection - the feat called Font of Inspiration located on the WotC website.

Based upon what the DM says I'd then begin building the character.  Does anyone have any suggestions, tips, and tricks regarding this class and PrC combination?  If I understand it correctly the Factotum is pretty much a god when it comes to skill checks and the like... and his ability to access spells from the Wizard's spell list makes him insanely versatile.  Then with the Chameleon's ability to have that floating feat selection.  Insanity could easily ensue.  :smirk

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2011, 10:59:46 AM »
If you use THIS as your homebrew,
wis based bard: you'll even get Perform (oratory) re-fluffed as wis based

you could go:

(wis)bardX whateverX // druid5 planar shepherd10 druid5                you'll need faiths of eberron, 1 book open... pick Shavarath as your chosen plane and wildshape into freaking Demons and Devils! and get their EX SU and SP abilities :evillaugh

that could very well facilitate overthrowing your father at around 14th level... :smirk
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 11:01:27 AM by JohnnyMayHymn »
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JaronK

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2011, 11:14:00 AM »
Thanks everyone for all their help.  I've been reading up on the Factotum, and overall I believe the Bard 5/Chameleon 10/Bard 5 || Factotum 20 - fits the group and character fairly well.  We have an assortment of meatshields and casters.  What we lack is a really good skill monkey, and the Prince's ability to quickly adapt to any given situation could be one of his signature traits.

In that case, you'll want the Bardic Knack substitution.  You lose Bardic Knowledge, but instead get to add half your Bard level to any skill check (but can't use ranks if you do so).  This combines amazingly with the Factotum's ability to add his class level to any skill check once per day per ability.  With these together a single rank in any lesser used skill is sufficient to be amazing at it.

Quote
I've submitted the PrC and Factotum to the DM for approval.  I've also asked to take - as my home brew selection - the feat called Font of Inspiration located on the WotC website.

I strongly recommend that you don't overdo this feat.  Three to four times is sufficient for any character.

Quote
Based upon what the DM says I'd then begin building the character.  Does anyone have any suggestions, tips, and tricks regarding this class and PrC combination?  If I understand it correctly the Factotum is pretty much a god when it comes to skill checks and the like... and his ability to access spells from the Wizard's spell list makes him insanely versatile.  Then with the Chameleon's ability to have that floating feat selection.  Insanity could easily ensue.  :smirk

Bardic Knack, as above.  Also, check out the Factotum's handbook.  And those floating feats are wonderful when used with Item Creation feats... go nuts with Craft Wondrous Item.

JaronK

Aldrick

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2011, 11:36:12 AM »
To the best of my knowledge Bardic Knack is only found in the PHB II.  Only these books are considered core books:  PHB I, DMG I, and MM I.  All other books are either going to cost my homebrew choice or one of my two book choices.

...and so far, at least, the DM is holding pretty hard to that rule.

Naturally, I could drop Font of Inspiration for Bardic Knack, however is it worth it to lose the Inspiration points?  At the start of the game I am, at best, going to have either +3 to skills as a result.  However, when using Bardic Knack I can't take ten.  By level 20 I'm only going to receive a +5 to skills as a result of Bardic Knack.  Now, +5 to -ALL- skills is nothing to sneeze at, but since I lack the experience of actually playing a Factotum it's difficult to judge what he'd lose as a result of not taking Font of Inspiration.

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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2011, 11:38:17 AM »
Bardick Knack is from PHB2. If he goes Bard 10/Chameleon 10 || Factotum 20 he will already have used his alotted 2 books.
Granted it is a solid idea, but he'd have to sacrifice either Chameleon or Factotum to get it and that is not worth it in either case.

I second the notion that Font of Inspiration should only be taken 3-4 times. By level 20 you will have 16-20 Inspiration points per "encounter" (Combat or Skill wise) which is more than enough to buy you 5-6 extra standard actions, bypass DR/SR multiple times, or even (by 19th level) the ability to mimic 3 class EX abilities all at once. I'm just drooling over Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike/Skirmish  :smirk

Quote from: JaronK
Also, check out the Factotum's handbook.  And those floating feats are wonderful when used with Item Creation feats... go nuts with Craft Wondrous Item.
+1   :clap

P.S. Bardic Knack is a little overkill with Factotum. Font of Inspiration provides you MUCH more than Bardick Knack. Even if you took Bardick Knack it would only net you a +5 to all your skills once you hit Bard 10. +5 to all your skills or an extra 6-10 points to spend on extra standard actions, SLA's, bypassing DR/SR, and eventually mimicking class EX abilites..... I think we know which one wins out.v  :D
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Re: Gestalt Bard - need serious help building a character.
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2011, 11:40:01 AM »
Something like bard1/factotum 8/x1 // Wizard+PrC10 with reasonable charisma is more powerful than Chameleon in my opinion.  Chamelion is fun too though :)
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