Author Topic: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant  (Read 4344 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2011, 02:37:32 PM »
Quote
If you're going to be a failtard about it, then forget it. Would you like to try again, this time with less fail and insults?

Relax. Seriously. It was exactly one insult, and light-hearted at that. For all the mean, nasty crap that you take on these boards, a light-hearted jab at a response which did not answer the question should hardly ping your radar. If I've misjudged entirely, and you're sensitive to even good-natured sniping, now would be an optimal time to speak up.

It's not about being bothered by the insults. It's about cracking down hard on anyone who would even consider disrespecting me, while at the same time wanting me to devote time and effort to help them. The reason why the fuckwit armies are so large is because I have been patient and tolerant. No more. Zero tolerance on failure.
"Cracking down" on them is what is making it worse, you are generating your own problem.

Nah, the problem started when I was patient with them. More and more failtards came out over time, because they thought it was safe.

And this is true. I'm a lot nicer when unprovoked by the fuckwit army. There's just so many of them.
Dude, half this board has just turned into people yelling at each other. The posting quality on average has gone way down, and now some threads are nigh unreadable. Ignoring people alleviates problems, trust me. It was a lot better when you just ignored them.

We've already tried this, that's why the failtards are out of control and must be purged with copious amounts of FIRE.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2011, 05:52:29 PM »
Quote
If you're going to be a failtard about it, then forget it. Would you like to try again, this time with less fail and insults?

Relax. Seriously. It was exactly one insult, and light-hearted at that. For all the mean, nasty crap that you take on these boards, a light-hearted jab at a response which did not answer the question should hardly ping your radar. If I've misjudged entirely, and you're sensitive to even good-natured sniping, now would be an optimal time to speak up.

It's not about being bothered by the insults. It's about cracking down hard on anyone who would even consider disrespecting me, while at the same time wanting me to devote time and effort to help them. The reason why the fuckwit armies are so large is because I have been patient and tolerant. No more. Zero tolerance on failure.
"Cracking down" on them is what is making it worse, you are generating your own problem.

Nah, the problem started when I was patient with them. More and more failtards came out over time, because they thought it was safe.

And this is true. I'm a lot nicer when unprovoked by the fuckwit army. There's just so many of them.
Dude, half this board has just turned into people yelling at each other. The posting quality on average has gone way down, and now some threads are nigh unreadable. Ignoring people alleviates problems, trust me. It was a lot better when you just ignored them.

We've already tried this, that's why the failtards are out of control and must be purged with copious amounts of FIRE.
Experimental evidence demonstrates that failtards are related to Brown Mold
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It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

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[spoiler]
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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
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[/spoiler]

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Mixster

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2011, 07:21:09 PM »
Quote
If you're going to be a failtard about it, then forget it. Would you like to try again, this time with less fail and insults?

Relax. Seriously. It was exactly one insult, and light-hearted at that. For all the mean, nasty crap that you take on these boards, a light-hearted jab at a response which did not answer the question should hardly ping your radar. If I've misjudged entirely, and you're sensitive to even good-natured sniping, now would be an optimal time to speak up.

It's not about being bothered by the insults. It's about cracking down hard on anyone who would even consider disrespecting me, while at the same time wanting me to devote time and effort to help them. The reason why the fuckwit armies are so large is because I have been patient and tolerant. No more. Zero tolerance on failure.
"Cracking down" on them is what is making it worse, you are generating your own problem.

Nah, the problem started when I was patient with them. More and more failtards came out over time, because they thought it was safe.

And this is true. I'm a lot nicer when unprovoked by the fuckwit army. There's just so many of them.
Dude, half this board has just turned into people yelling at each other. The posting quality on average has gone way down, and now some threads are nigh unreadable. Ignoring people alleviates problems, trust me. It was a lot better when you just ignored them.

We've already tried this, that's why the failtards are out of control and must be purged with copious amounts of FIRE.
Experimental evidence demonstrates that failtards are related to Brown Mold

I could be wrong, but I don't think telling people they are fuckwits is the best way to have them be more civil.

Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

Rejakor

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2011, 07:52:43 PM »
This might be useful for the two rogue based characters.

Hit And Run Fighter 1 + Shadow Blade means you add dex to damage twice.  Once even if they're not flatfooted.

When making beatsticks, it's important that:

1.  They can do damage.  There are a number of ways to do this.  PA + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper is the easiest, but you can also channel spells (enlightened fist, duskblade, spellsword), Stormguard warrior, Insightful Strike + Hit And Run Fighter + Shadow Blade, or even something fruity like a MultiRushing Dungeoncrasher.  Doing damage is the default beatstick way to contribute.  All Beatstick builds other than melee debuffers (chain trip stunners, Mass Staredown Fearlockers) and ability damage eaters (Wightblade Fell Drainers) want at least SOME kind of ability to do hp damage.

2.  Defenses.  Most beatsticks are horribly vulnerable to even weak save-targeters like Dominate Person.  A solid fog or even grease or web can completely shut down most beatsticks.  Beatsticks should have some way to avoid mind-affecting effects (Steadfast Determination, Mind Blank), some way to dance through BFC effects (Freedom of Movement, free/swift/move action teleportation), and a way to bull through kill-you-lol effects (high fort save, immunities, veil of undeath), and a way to avoid dying to HP damage (high HP, Vigor, meaningful AC, Blur, Blink/Greater Blink, Displacement, Mirror Image, Initiator Counters, Contingent Effects).

3.  Movement.  A lot of beatsticks who have both of the above end up fighting enemies that fight at ranged, or fly, or walldive, or are ethereal, or eat a lot of weetbix every morning.  This means, in order to catch them, your beatstick needs to be able to take the fight to them, as opposed to them taking the fight to you.  There are a number of ways to do this, and unfortunately, they're more like a checklist than a list of options.  A beatstick should be able to Fly (Overland Flight, Wings of Lolling, Open Lesser Chakra + Something Wings, Feathered Wings Graft, Desert Wind Maneuvers, etc), Move quickly (Wings of Air + Flying, Haste, Boots of Sprinting, Hustle, Teleportation), Teleport (Anklet of Teleportation, Shadow Jaunt, Boots of Big Stepping, 6th level of Horizon Walker, Dimension Hop, etc), deal with odd movement modes (burrow + spring attack is a bad hair day for a fighting-type - look into readied action stuns, trips, or immobilization - if you're in water, you better have freedom of movement+flight or a swim speed or you're SoL).  A fighter should also try to be faster than the opposition, but that's hard.  Even with access to polymorph or alter self, most high-str forms aren't that fast.  Boots of Speed for haste, and feathered wings graft or another form of natural flight is the best way to get around the battlefield and is doable from quite low level.

4.  Hitting.  Lots of foes are hard to hit, either because they have high AC, reach + Large And In Charge, various illusioney ways to avoid being hit (Displacement, Mirror Image, Blink), or they teleport around like a mofo.  This can seriously wreck your day.  So, and in order.  High AC is the perennial pain in a beatstick's rear.  A way to get wraithstrike, so you hit touch AC, can make this headache a lot smaller.  Boosting your to-hit by way of an attuned weapon (if you're a psywar), greater magic weapon so you can have your enhancements and your bonus, having a high str (polymorph etc), having a decent BAB (BAB is typically overpriced, though - 2 buff spells that give you +8 to hit and damage are worth more than +2 BAB), having a bard around for the song, buffs such as improvisation or divine favour or haste that add to hit... all these things help you hit AC more reliably.  Reach + Large And In Charge - tumble to avoid AoOs, various maneuver-based counters.  Lots of ways to avoid getting hit by AoOs, can't list them off the top of my head.  Several feats and abilities and spells allow you to avoid AoOs completely.  Illusions:  Steadfast Perception is nice, but an AMF or a Illusion-Theft weapon is better.  A dispelling weapon can be kinda nice, but caster CLs tend to be higher.  Pierce Magical Concealment just allows you to straight up ignore concealment, which is awesome.  Teleporting around - Dimensional Anchor is fun, and in MiC I believe it comes in weapon form.  Other than that, this is one of those situations where having a decent ranged option is nice.  Another option is Mage Slayer, a feat that doesn't let adjacent foes cast defensively.  Make sure your AoO hits hard enough to autofail their conc check, and they're not goin' nowhere.

Neat low level trick:  If you don't fight displacer beasts or casters very much, illusion-bane or -theft might be a bit much to have on your main weapon, but a +1 Illusion-bane or -theft whip or spiked chain as a secondary weapon can be a lifesaver.  Artificers can also add Illusion-bane with their personal weapon augmentation infusion from level 1.

5.  Wildcards.  Whether it's a explosive runes nuke strapped to your chest or a Contingent Transcend Mortality or a fast-and-dirty Scroll of Body Outside Body... beatsticks are the class that benefits the most from a truly ridiculous wildcard.  Casters are made of wildcards, and rogues use low-level wildcards constantly, but since beatsticks live on the edge (of their hp totals) a lot of the time, when they get in the shit, it's generally deeper than most other classes' shit, and they need something a bit more hardcore to get out of it.  There are all kinds of wildcards, from the Master Alchemist brew'd potion of Giant Size to something stupid like a pocket psion with Vigor and Share Pain in the form of a spell symbiote with metamorphic transfer to triple your hp and get 300 THP per round at level 10.  Find something truly awesome and keep it for a rainy day.  Because the rain will come, and it's nice to save the party, even if you go down doing it.  You're just cooler and bloody tougher than everyone else, those lily livered pansies.  Don't ever forget that being the beatstick doesn't just mean you need to work harder to be level appropriate - it means you're bloody hardcore, and that makes you awesome.  Don't ever bet against The Duke.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 08:00:32 PM by Rejakor »