Author Topic: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant  (Read 7227 times)

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Iskajir

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Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« on: February 28, 2011, 10:01:07 AM »
This is a thought brought on by the "viable magic-less character" thread.

The game I play in most often has 2 primary casters (wizard and cloistered cleric), 2 primary meleers, a non-caster glass cannon, and a hybrid prestige class build (Sacred Fist) in the awkward, super-suck stage at ECL ~7.

My wizard/war weaver has been spamming heavy buff action, and the non-magical characters are still doing well with Ability Enhancer + Animalistic Power, Enlarge BSF, and Haste. With heavy support how long until they look under-powered? 9th? 11th?

Most combats go thus:
Round 1: quiescent weave + situational buff
Round 2: situational buff, BFC, or de-buff, depending on situation.
Round 3: If enemy is not dead, re-assess. BFC/debuff vs. Mop-up.
Round 4: Only exists very rarely. If so, repeat Round 3 tactic.
Round 5: Haven't had one in several levels.

I ask because I have a sort of "gentleman's agreement" with the DM involving not getting nerfed, if I play nice and don't hog the spotlight. So far this has resulted in a number of unusually favorable rulings, and general good will. I can have Celerity, Polymorph, and all of the uber toys that are so often banned. I like it. Even now, the power balance between casters and meleers is skewed enough that ToB got unbanned. I just don't see how it can last through mid-levels....


I don't mind un-nerfed power at the cost of Spiderman-like gametable ethics, "Peter, with great power comes great responsibility..."

Any ideas?

Presuming:
a. I don't want to be a jerk, and risk a beating with the nerf bat. Self-nerfing is by far the more palatable choice.
b. I have little to no control over other PC's builds.
c. Some of my fellow party members, for reasons I cannot understand, truly enjoy hitting things with sticks. After many years I am forced the conclude that I cannot change this. I want, instead, to optimize it.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 01:16:05 PM by Iskajir »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 10:23:08 AM »
Easy answer. You don't. No really.

D&D is a game in which at level 3, you're supposed to beat up things as strong as ten men (Ogres) and it's not even a big deal. By 10 or so, you're fighting all manner of supernatural threats, many of which can slay an NI or even truly infinite number of regular troops, and could take out said army of troops yourself, if you wanted.

There's no place for "herp derp I swing my sword around really hard". Of course that can't keep up! And since beatsticks can't pull off the anime type stunts that would really be considered magic, anyways, well they fail. The fact things like attack animals do their job better, etc is a consequence of being CAPed, but not the problem itself.

Like it or not, magic is the only path to victory. Spells, items, whatever. Even if you call it something else, it's still magic.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Iskajir

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 10:53:59 AM »
Ok, Sunic. Not the most useful pile of steaming turds advice ever, but it's a start.

With WBL-ish in a high-magic setting, most items are available, even custom ones. Magic save enhancers abound. Anklets of Translocation are high-fashion among members of the party. Except for the VoP Monk/Favored Soul/Sacred Fist, who is screwed pretty hard, acquiring items is very viable. Getting buff-love from the Tier 1 lists is very viable.

Adding to the list of presumptions:
c. Some of my fellow party members, for reasons I cannot understand, truly enjoy hitting things with sticks. After many years I am forced the conclude that I cannot change this. I want, instead, to optimize it.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2011, 11:21:47 AM »
If you're going to be a failtard about it, then forget it. Would you like to try again, this time with less fail and insults?
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2011, 11:25:18 AM »
The noncaster PCs won't be able to compete with you or the Cleric or combat or in the ability to advance the plot. Depending on how well they are build with the right amount of buffs they can probably last until level 9? Maybe 11? Plotwise they become liabilities and after level 6.

Bard

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2011, 11:27:29 AM »
I don't really see how "hitting things with sticks" in 3.5 is that bad, there's plenty of builds and ways to go out there to make an awesome meele or any kind of glass cannon without casting even a cantrip :\
It is true that a poorly built wizard is orders of magnitude better than a poorly built non-caster, but with the right items and builds they can outshine and outdamage anything.
(that is, if you avaoid deep fried cheese like arcane spellsurges, pun pun's and stuff like that and restrict to an albeit high-powered practical optimization)
Just to make an example in a party I played two years ago or so the biggest damage dealer we got at levels 17 to 21 was a Barbarian (and he wasn't "glass-y" at all)

The fact is... a noncaster build already at level 7 isn't easily fixable, it's way too late for most, but maybe we can come up with some ideas with a bit more info.
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2011, 11:42:51 AM »
I don't really see how "hitting things with sticks" in 3.5 is that bad, there's plenty of builds and ways to go out there to make an awesome meele or any kind of glass cannon without casting even a cantrip :\
It is true that a poorly built wizard is orders of magnitude better than a poorly built non-caster, but with the right items and builds they can outshine and outdamage anything.
(that is, if you avaoid deep fried cheese like arcane spellsurges, pun pun's and stuff like that and restrict to an albeit high-powered practical optimization)
Just to make an example in a party I played two years ago or so the biggest damage dealer we got at levels 17 to 21 was a Barbarian (and he wasn't "glass-y" at all)

The fact is... a noncaster build already at level 7 isn't easily fixable, it's way too late for most, but maybe we can come up with some ideas with a bit more info.

Short answer: Spells > you, and enemies hit things with sticks better than you, and you can't advance plots in any case. Even if you do good damage, it's never about damage, so it doesn't matter. Meanwhile, you're squishy as hell. As you might expect when you put normal people up against super threats aka anything mid or high level.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

skydragonknight

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2011, 11:46:56 AM »
You can do fights with a melee crew...it just takes longer. Maybe stack some Displacement/Greater Invisibility and Blink on them for a 75% miss chance. That'll give them 4X as long before the enemy overwhelms them and hopefully they can gang up and eliminate the threats one by one to extend that length.

The only thing missing is a decent damage buff...picking up Chain Spell and applying it to Greater Mighty Wallop once you get 6th level spells would be interesting. Would make the monk fail less, at least.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 11:51:56 AM by skydragonknight »
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Iskajir

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 12:10:07 PM »
Quote
If you're going to be a failtard about it, then forget it. Would you like to try again, this time with less fail and insults?

Relax. Seriously. It was exactly one insult, and light-hearted at that. For all the mean, nasty crap that you take on these boards, a light-hearted jab at a response which did not answer the question should hardly ping your radar. If I've misjudged entirely, and you're sensitive to even good-natured sniping, now would be an optimal time to speak up.

I do, however, concede that I was perhaps unclear in what I want.
  • I cannot change the builds already in play, as the other players are content as is.
  • I cannot change the attitude of my fellow players, who think stabbing/smacking/poking monsters is the height of gameplay fun.
  • I can say, "Hey, look at this neat feat/buff/item/whatever that will make you a better BSF"
  • I can say, "Look, Bob the Fighttard is falling behind, O Great DM' o' Mine, why don't you check out this variant rule over here, which wouldn't unbalance things, and maybe could let ole Bob keep having fun."
  • In short, if I can't fix the system, or the beatstick mentality, I want to optimize the fuck out of it.

More clear?


Quote
Maybe 11? Plotwise they become liabilities and after level 6.
Less concerned about plot/fluff. The DM has a soft spot for the Aragorns and Boromirs of the world. In that respect they should be ok-ish. I'm particularly looking for mechanics/crunch. What are the best ways to keep them looking shiny and relevant until (arbitrarily) 11th?

Quote
maybe we can come up with some ideas with a bit more info.
I could cheerily talk your ear off all day, but what would be relevant info from your perspective? Builds, setting, plot, availability of this/that/the other, combat styles?? I am like every other nerd you know and will ramble about game all morning pointlessly given the chance, but would rather offer up some actually useful info.

Quote
You can do fights with a melee crew...it just takes longer. Maybe stack some Displacement/Greater Invisibility and Blink on them for a 75% miss chance. That'll give them 4X as long before the enemy overwhelms them and hopefully they can gang up and eliminate the threats one by one to extend that length.

The only thing missing is a decent damage buff...picking up Chain Spell and applying it to Greater Mighty Wallop once you get 6th level spells would be interesting. Would make the monk fail less, at least.

Picked up a scroll of Shadow Phase recently, and it will starting to get used fairly regularly by next level. Despite the 1 rnd/ level duration, it's True-Seeing-proof. One fighter has Blurring armor already, and the other is eying it covetously. My plan also includes a lesser rod of chaining, and Greater Mighty Wallop after CL 8 for the chain fighter and the monk. This is advice much more in the vein that I needed though. Thanks!

skydragonknight

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2011, 12:32:34 PM »
I approve of Shadow Phase....because it encourages the DM to give the enemies magic weapons = more treasure. ;)
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2011, 12:39:24 PM »
Quote
If you're going to be a failtard about it, then forget it. Would you like to try again, this time with less fail and insults?

Relax. Seriously. It was exactly one insult, and light-hearted at that. For all the mean, nasty crap that you take on these boards, a light-hearted jab at a response which did not answer the question should hardly ping your radar. If I've misjudged entirely, and you're sensitive to even good-natured sniping, now would be an optimal time to speak up.

It's not about being bothered by the insults. It's about cracking down hard on anyone who would even consider disrespecting me, while at the same time wanting me to devote time and effort to help them. The reason why the fuckwit armies are so large is because I have been patient and tolerant. No more. Zero tolerance on failure.

Quote
I do, however, concede that I was perhaps unclear in what I want.
  • I cannot change the builds already in play, as the other players are content as is.
  • I cannot change the attitude of my fellow players, who think stabbing/smacking/poking monsters is the height of gameplay fun.
  • I can say, "Hey, look at this neat feat/buff/item/whatever that will make you a better BSF"
  • I can say, "Look, Bob the Fighttard is falling behind, O Great DM' o' Mine, why don't you check out this variant rule over here, which wouldn't unbalance things, and maybe could let ole Bob keep having fun."
  • In short, if I can't fix the system, or the beatstick mentality, I want to optimize the fuck out of it.

More clear?

The point I was making is that you need system revamping houserules to make beatsticking less "herp derp I hit it hard" and more something like you'd see in Dissidia. Otherwise, the concept of beatsticking is conceptually flawed, and thus unsavable. Even things like CoDzillas remain relevant because they are Clerics, who happen to hit things, and not because they hit things.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Iskajir

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2011, 01:12:06 PM »
+1 at skydragonknight.  The thought had occurred to me. From levels 2-5 we were consistently below WBL, but that seems largely resolved. Still, more loot is better.  

Quote
It's not about being bothered by the insults. It's about cracking down hard on anyone who would even consider disrespecting me, while at the same time wanting me to devote time and effort to help them.

Noted.
Quote
The point I was making is that you need system revamping houserules to make beatsticking less "herp derp I hit it hard" and more something like you'd see in Dissidia. Otherwise, the concept of beatsticking is conceptually flawed, and thus unsavable.

A full top-to-bottom revamping is not an option when I am not the DM. If he does note inbalance between my one character, and 3 melee "fighters" and an archer, I strongly suspect that he will see my wizard as out-of-balance from the rest of the party, and nerf me, not give them a hand-up. This is not a post about idealistically re-vamping an inherently broken system. It's about preventing me, personally, from winding up on the business end of a nerf bat as long as possible through careful feat/spell/PrC selection, and perhaps a bit of chicanery to make beatsticks look better than they are.

Are you familiar with Iron Heroes? I've only skimmed it, and not recently, but is there anything in there that could be readily and quickly adapted for a more standard 3.5 environment?

Quote
something like you'd see in Dissidia
Not really a console game player, so I had to google this. Still not my thing, but the graphics are nice, and I can see why it is an appealing system to hit monsters with anime swords.

I understand, Sunic, that you are trying to make a point about the flaws of the system as a whole. You are an idealist, albeit a rather curmudgeonly one. In this case, the ideal is unobtainable, and I am looking for a way to make the best of my admittedly flawed (in-game) reality.
[spoiler]I darn near wrote that I am a realist, but the irony of saying that about a fantasy gaming system made me laugh carbonated beverage out an inappropriate orifice and onto my desk.[/spoiler]

Bard

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2011, 02:04:50 PM »
I could cheerily talk your ear off all day, but what would be relevant info from your perspective? Builds, setting, plot, availability of this/that/the other, combat styles?? I am like every other nerd you know and will ramble about game all morning pointlessly given the chance, but would rather offer up some actually useful info.

I was thinking about their builds, or at least their classes and if they have any significant feats or anything we can use. I could suggest maybe Craven feat for a Rogue, or some manouvers/PrC from ToB for a TWF-er, or any number of other things, but I need to know what they are a bit better than "two melee and a glass cannon" :P

Beside that, in regards to what you can do about it...
The Bite of the Were(animal) line of spells from Spell Compendium are all nice buffs.
You can also Polymorph Any Object on them to make them fatter.
Summon Monster * is nice to help your melee characters to flank their targets, especially useful if you have sneak attackers.
You could also just debuff the *** out of their targets, so it makes the job easier for them.
I'll save you random suggestions about using Battlefield control to save their collective asses, and I second the buffs already suggested :D

As far as your build goes, War Weaver was an awesome start... then you could check if there's some of the big cleric buffs on some domain list and take Arcane Disciple to be able to cast them too (while you have a cleric, you can buff the whole party using only one spell slot, the cleric would need more spell slots or a spell slot of higher level).
Archmage gives you some interesting stuff (Arcane Reach is useful to buff in combat with spells that have touch range, Mastery of Shaping is awesome with some BFC spells), the feat requirements are a bit hard, but you can get one for free if you dip Master Specialist (if you are a specialist wizard)
[Spoiler]
His old DM was on crack. He could take levels in freaking Dread Necromancer if he wanted to and no rule in the universe would keep him from doing so.
Rule 0?
Which, I guess, would be 'no rule,' since none = 0.
What's funny is he always brings up Rule 0. I actually had to ask him what that was, and without blinking an eye he gave me the most detailed explanation I'd ever heard for a rule. It was like he was in a trance when he spoke. Looking it up, it just said "The unspoken DM gets final say/veto anything he wants rule."
You're such a kind man, for taking in abused unfortunates and rehabilitating them.
[/spoiler]

Iskajir

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2011, 02:46:13 PM »
Builds as planned, as far as I understand. Everyone is 7th level or on the cusp of it.

Me: Focused Trasmuter 5/Warweaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon5/Abjurant Champion 5. This will provide , some personal buffs as touch buffs, touch buffs at close range, idiot-proof BFC, and a little bit of candy at high levels. Elemental Familiar spell means my familiar is a tiny raven-shaped elemental w/ 100'(perfect), and Flyby Attack.

Beatstick 1: Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 w/ Daring Outlaw and Able Learner, uses an elven courtblade, party skillmonkey

Beatstick 2: Rogue 4/Fighter 16, chain tripper (OA blunt version 1d6, TWF/reach version), bullrusher, BFC, disarm, Twf, Jotunbrud

Glass Cannon: Scout 4/Ranger 16 W/ Swift Hunter feat, alchemical arrows for a variety of effects, snipe-and-hide tactics

Cleric: Cloistered Cleric 10/Dweormerkeeper 10 w/Magical Training feat, Dragonwrought Kobold, Leadership, prefers bright, loud, flamboyant spells, and is all up the dragonblood shtick. Cohort is DFA, followers all kobolds. Has the Divine feat to make her turning attempts into breath weapon.

Other Guy: VoP Monk 5/Favored Soul 1/Sacred Fist 10/ Monk-flavored PrC 4, unbuffed STR 10, uses Flaming fists, instead of stunning Fist, maxed Diplomacy score, but would rather just roll than roleplay.


I have an Amber Amulet of Vermin (lg spider) , activated as a standard action, it gives 8 uses of web as a debuff, and a wall of hp between me and BBEG. Well worth its 700gp value. I hesitate to rely to heavily on 1 round casting time spells, or BFC that the beatsticks might blunder into and hurt themselves, so I use these options a bit gingerly. Debuffing is ideal for a single large enemy, like a hydra. Ray of Enfeeblement/Clumsiness, then Stolen Breath.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2011, 03:56:39 PM »
Quote
The point I was making is that you need system revamping houserules to make beatsticking less "herp derp I hit it hard" and more something like you'd see in Dissidia. Otherwise, the concept of beatsticking is conceptually flawed, and thus unsavable.

A full top-to-bottom revamping is not an option when I am not the DM. If he does note inbalance between my one character, and 3 melee "fighters" and an archer, I strongly suspect that he will see my wizard as out-of-balance from the rest of the party, and nerf me, not give them a hand-up. This is not a post about idealistically re-vamping an inherently broken system. It's about preventing me, personally, from winding up on the business end of a nerf bat as long as possible through careful feat/spell/PrC selection, and perhaps a bit of chicanery to make beatsticks look better than they are.

Are you familiar with Iron Heroes? I've only skimmed it, and not recently, but is there anything in there that could be readily and quickly adapted for a more standard 3.5 environment?

So basically, you have a bad DM, and are expected to pull a LOT of dead weight? Um yeah, you're kinda fucked. And I mean pressed against the wall and ravaged fucked.

Iron Heroes is complete and utter Fail. Nothing good will come of it.

Quote
Not really a console game player, so I had to google this. Still not my thing, but the graphics are nice, and I can see why it is an appealing system to hit monsters with anime swords.

I understand, Sunic, that you are trying to make a point about the flaws of the system as a whole. You are an idealist, albeit a rather curmudgeonly one. In this case, the ideal is unobtainable, and I am looking for a way to make the best of my admittedly flawed (in-game) reality.

The point is to play D&D, you must be doing crazy shit, and that was the easiest example of such. Casters have theirs by default. Not many systems give beatsticks nice things, so examples are rare.

Also, the best buffs are self only, like the Bite of line, so until you actually get the ability to cast it on others, which will likely be a while it won't help make the beatsticks fail less.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

skydragonknight

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Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2011, 08:01:36 PM »
Don't pick a fight with Sunic. He's been off his game recently and is usually half right and half wrong. But convincing him of the half wrong is impossible since he's as stubborn as JaronK. Best to take the part of what he says that's right, ignore the rest, and walk away.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Bastian

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2011, 08:14:55 PM »
Quote
If you're going to be a failtard about it, then forget it. Would you like to try again, this time with less fail and insults?

Relax. Seriously. It was exactly one insult, and light-hearted at that. For all the mean, nasty crap that you take on these boards, a light-hearted jab at a response which did not answer the question should hardly ping your radar. If I've misjudged entirely, and you're sensitive to even good-natured sniping, now would be an optimal time to speak up.

It's not about being bothered by the insults. It's about cracking down hard on anyone who would even consider disrespecting me, while at the same time wanting me to devote time and effort to help them. The reason why the fuckwit armies are so large is because I have been patient and tolerant. No more. Zero tolerance on failure.
"Cracking down" on them is what is making it worse, you are generating your own problem.

Bester

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2011, 08:16:07 PM »
So basically, you have a bad DM...etc

This is true.  For the rest of you, it is very easy to read around Sunic.  If he wasn't under constant attack, he'd probably behave.

Besides threatening to hit you with nerf bats(I get this every game btw), this dm hasn't even considered balance before you began playing.

The VOP monk proves that.  Who in their right mind would play that without major houserules?

Bastian

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Re: Keeping Non-Magical PCs Relevant
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2011, 08:25:45 PM »
So basically, you have a bad DM...etc

This is true.  For the rest of you, it is very easy to read around Sunic.  If he wasn't under constant attack, he'd probably behave.
Actually, it started with Sunic's behavior and became a cycle. Sunic refused to behave when he started posting on this forum so he got some flak, in response to the flak he got worse and thus got more flak and so on.

Sunic_Flames

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  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: Keeping Non-Casting PCs Relevant
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2011, 08:28:46 PM »
Quote
If you're going to be a failtard about it, then forget it. Would you like to try again, this time with less fail and insults?

Relax. Seriously. It was exactly one insult, and light-hearted at that. For all the mean, nasty crap that you take on these boards, a light-hearted jab at a response which did not answer the question should hardly ping your radar. If I've misjudged entirely, and you're sensitive to even good-natured sniping, now would be an optimal time to speak up.

It's not about being bothered by the insults. It's about cracking down hard on anyone who would even consider disrespecting me, while at the same time wanting me to devote time and effort to help them. The reason why the fuckwit armies are so large is because I have been patient and tolerant. No more. Zero tolerance on failure.
"Cracking down" on them is what is making it worse, you are generating your own problem.

Nah, the problem started when I was patient with them. More and more failtards came out over time, because they thought it was safe.

And this is true. I'm a lot nicer when unprovoked by the fuckwit army. There's just so many of them.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]