Nytemare's Class Rewrites: Barbarian

[Andion Isurand]

There's also Whirling Frenzy and Ferocity to to consider.

[Midnight_v]

There's also Whirling Frenzy and Ferocity to to consider.

Yeah... I think I've heard of those yeah. . .   

[zioth]

First, I'm sorry for anything insulting or condescending I've said in this thread. Reading my posts, some of them sound that way.

Second, I remain confused. If this barbarian were allowed into the relatively high powered (but low wealth) campaign I currently play in, he would completely break the game. His extreme DR, saves and SR would make him immune to way too many things.

Yes, I didn't come up with particularly clever tactics for the dragon, but I'm guessing most people here would agree that this barbarian could hold his own against the CR21 dragon alone, for 5-10 rounds. People might even agree that the barbarian, with level-appropriate equipment, might even beat the dragon. CR21 is supposed to be challenging to a whole party, of which the barbarian is just one member. In my opinion, a single level 20 character should not have much chance of beating a CR21 encounter alone.

But forget all that. The goal here is to modify the melee classes so that they can stand up to the spellcasting classes. I believe, and others obviously disagree, that the combination of DR20, SR48 and 33 to all saves pushes the barbarian beyond pure spellcasters. I think that reducing the DR as Nytemare proposed and knocking the SR down to 15+character level might be enough to balance it.


By the way, someone suggested the dragon use Solid Fog and Black Tentacles. I'm not sure how that would work. Solid Fog prevents the dragon from using any melee attacks, and I can't see Black Tentacles holding a level 20 barbarian, even if he doesn't have something like an Anklet of Translocation.

[Midnight_v]

By the way, someone suggested the dragon use Solid Fog and Black Tentacles. I'm not sure how that would work. Solid Fog prevents the dragon from using any melee attacks, and I can't see Black Tentacles holding a level 20 barbarian, even if he doesn't have something like an Anklet of Translocation

Honestly, I think he meant to say "Acid fog" which the dragon could cast 5 times for 13 rounds each. I don't think black tentcles is the way either, though Honestly I think the dragon could use its tail sweep from outside the acid fog taking no damage, just forcing the save every round then stopping occasionally to spam more acid fog, but it might be better to breath weapon into the area of the acid fog etc... theres a lot of stuff that can be done really.

[Littha]

Yes, I didn't come up with particularly clever tactics for the dragon, but I'm guessing most people here would agree that this barbarian could hold his own against the CR21 dragon alone, for 5-10 rounds. People might even agree that the barbarian, with level-appropriate equipment, might even beat the dragon. CR21 is supposed to be challenging to a whole party, of which the barbarian is just one member. In my opinion, a single level 20 character should not have much chance of beating a CR21 encounter alone.

The barbarian wouldn't beat a dragon, the dragon will still probably kill him. It just takes 3 or 4 rounds as opposed to 1.

[veekie]

Yes, I didn't come up with particularly clever tactics for the dragon, but I'm guessing most people here would agree that this barbarian could hold his own against the CR21 dragon alone, for 5-10 rounds. People might even agree that the barbarian, with level-appropriate equipment, might even beat the dragon. CR21 is supposed to be challenging to a whole party, of which the barbarian is just one member. In my opinion, a single level 20 character should not have much chance of beating a CR21 encounter alone.

The barbarian wouldn't beat a dragon, the dragon will still probably kill him. It just takes 3 or 4 rounds as opposed to 1.

Assuming an unequipped dragon.
An equipped and buffed dragon would shred him in 1.5 rounds.

[Bloody Initiate]

...and he's still missing the point that standing up to the dragon for more than one round is the barbarian's JOB. The fact that monsters annihilate melee characters in a single round is a flaw in the system, a mistake, not the way it's supposed to be. What would be the point of being a melee class if your design was to get destroyed in melee?

A level 20 melee class should absolutely be able to stand for more than one round against a CR 21 enemy, because CR 21 should be tough but doable. The experience tables stop giving you bonus experience at CR + 4, which means that you are supposed to be equipped to deal with encounters up to 4 levels higher than your CR but you are expected to struggle with them.

[Nytemare3701]

First, I'm sorry for anything insulting or condescending I've said in this thread. Reading my posts, some of them sound that way.

Second, I remain confused. If this barbarian were allowed into the relatively high powered (but low wealth) campaign I currently play in, he would completely break the game. His extreme DR, saves and SR would make him immune to way too many things.

Yes, I didn't come up with particularly clever tactics for the dragon, but I'm guessing most people here would agree that this barbarian could hold his own against the CR21 dragon alone, for 5-10 rounds. People might even agree that the barbarian, with level-appropriate equipment, might even beat the dragon. CR21 is supposed to be challenging to a whole party, of which the barbarian is just one member. In my opinion, a single level 20 character should not have much chance of beating a CR21 encounter alone.

But forget all that. The goal here is to modify the melee classes so that they can stand up to the spellcasting classes. I believe, and others obviously disagree, that the combination of DR20, SR48 and 33 to all saves pushes the barbarian beyond pure spellcasters. I think that reducing the DR as Nytemare proposed and knocking the SR down to 15+character level might be enough to balance it.


By the way, someone suggested the dragon use Solid Fog and Black Tentacles. I'm not sure how that would work. Solid Fog prevents the dragon from using any melee attacks, and I can't see Black Tentacles holding a level 20 barbarian, even if he doesn't have something like an Anklet of Translocation.

I understand where you are coming from here, but you are still missing a large part of this. An equal CR creature should have a 50/50 shot of killing a lone player. A party of 4 should use 1/4 of the resources between them on it. That means that the CR21 dragon played average should have an above average chance of killing the barbarian in an outright fight. As the current rules stand, the barbarian goes down like a chump in 1, maybe 2 turns. This rewrite makes the barbarian an appropriate part of a level 20 group.

TL;DR: Against a dragon he will likely lose, but slowly. Against the dragon with his party it is a slightly above average fight.

[oslecamo]

A level 20 melee class should absolutely be able to stand for more than one round against a CR 21 enemy, because CR 21 should be tough but doable. The experience tables stop giving you bonus experience at CR + 4, which means that you are supposed to be equipped to deal with encounters up to 4 levels higher than your CR but you are expected to struggle with them.

That's assuming a whole party of characters fighting a single monster of CR +4. They have 50% win chance, quite extreme. Anything stronger is suposed to be suicide territorry.

If you're fighting alone, then an oponent of your own level is suposed to be CR+4, aka 50% victory chance. Barbarian 20 vs barbarian 20. Wizard 20 vs wizard 20.

Now if you have wizard 20 vs wizard 21, well, my money's on the wizard 21.

That a CR 21 dragon will shred a lv 20 character fighting by himself is how's the system suposed to work. A single character isn't expected to defeat an oponent of bigger CR by himself.

[Bloody Initiate]

I never said "defeat."

I said "stand for more than one round against."

There's a big difference between doing your job (Surviving level-appropriate attacks) and doing everyone's job (Defeating level-appropriate enemies).

The fact that the Barbarian can survive multiple attacks from the dragon does not mean he can defeat the dragon.

[zioth]

I've been running through the excercise of what happens when the dragon encounters this barbarian. Could someone else do the same? Maybe I'll see how I'm wrong.

Red dragon: CR21 (caster level 13). Spells prepared for a variety of situations, as opposed to specifically targetted against the barbarian. Reasonably equipped by a DM who doesn't want to boost the party over their expected wealth per level. Keep in mind that a typical dragon has a hoard along with its magic items.

Barbarian: Level 20. Equipment appropriate for a variety of situations, and standard wealth of a level 20 character. This includes a +6 amulet and a +5 tome to maximize constitution. The barbarian has DR20, SR48 and 33 in all saves, or higher if you give him a vest of resistance or something.

Both are played intelligently. How long will the barbarian really survive?

And here might be a better question: Does the barbarian have a higher or lower than 50% chance of defeating a level 20 druid in a similar set-up? Let's say the barbarian focuses on disrupting spells.

[Bloody Initiate]

I thought about running through it, but the idea of a red dragon having a smoker laugh because it actually just defeated someone with fire damage at level 20 was more enjoyable for me. That's gotta be frustrating for red dragons, "I've gotta do fire damage?!?" It's a good thing players usually get to pick their races, the NPCs have no such luxury.