Author Topic: Fun vs. Efficiency  (Read 9666 times)

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Endarire

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Fun vs. Efficiency
« on: February 26, 2011, 05:38:19 AM »
One of my friends thrives on spontaneity.  He doesn't know much about the rules, despite playing for years, and measures his fun in the silliness he can do and the chaos he can wreak.

I'm an optimizer at heart.  It's in my family.  I've been studying third edition's rules since 3.0 was hot off the presses at GenCon 2000.  I view optimization for efficiency as fun and necessary.  I hate making suboptimal choices, and my self-scorn is far more than any other's when it comes to optimization.

My friend views fun and efficiency as competing factors.  I had considered this before, but never seriously.  I occasionally lamented that an interesting ability wasn't mechanically viable, or that I was stuck spamming efficient effects in place of variety.

This doesn't consider the amount of system knowledge needed to make many concepts mechanically viable in 3.5.

How compatible are fun and efficiency in tabletop games?  What are your experiences?  What can GMs and game makers do to merge these more?
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2011, 05:44:39 AM »
Ima do the lazy thing and pull my response from another thread:

If you enjoy playing, then you would probably prefer to live.

My reason for getting good at games where you can spend time "dead" was always that I wanted to play them, not sit out, and you can only play if you're alive. So you want to die as little as possible specifically so you can play as much as possible.

It's the same reason you want to have a positive kill/death spread in a competitive FPS. Sure it means your stats are good, but what it really means is you spent as little time as possible staring at the respawn screen. I enjoy rolling the dice to kill things more than I enjoy making characters (Which holds little fascination for me if I know I won't get to play them, character creation is only fun for me if I can convince myself I will play the character). So I build characters that can survive, because that is more fun than not surviving for me.

I know what you mean about just playing because it's fun, I play with friends so enjoy their company. However I spent most of this evening's session unconscious, which was a lot less fun than spending it killing things.


If you want to have fun, you must win. Otherwise you'll be having your "fun" making new characters over and over again.

Also, just so we're clear, the definition of being "good" at a game is the ability to have your will be done. You are good at a game when you can make your wish your own command; when what you want can be demonstrated by your in-game avatar rather than your statements.

Powerful beings frequently do horrible things to less-powerful beings because to them it is fun, and they can do it because they are powerful. You want to have "fun?" Become powerful enough to make sport of whatever you want.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 05:49:04 AM by Bloody Initiate »
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Risada

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2011, 06:10:36 AM »
Ima do the lazy thing and pull my response from another thread:

If you enjoy playing, then you would probably prefer to live.

My reason for getting good at games where you can spend time "dead" was always that I wanted to play them, not sit out, and you can only play if you're alive. So you want to die as little as possible specifically so you can play as much as possible.

It's the same reason you want to have a positive kill/death spread in a competitive FPS. Sure it means your stats are good, but what it really means is you spent as little time as possible staring at the respawn screen. I enjoy rolling the dice to kill things more than I enjoy making characters (Which holds little fascination for me if I know I won't get to play them, character creation is only fun for me if I can convince myself I will play the character). So I build characters that can survive, because that is more fun than not surviving for me.

I know what you mean about just playing because it's fun, I play with friends so enjoy their company. However I spent most of this evening's session unconscious, which was a lot less fun than spending it killing things.


If you want to have fun, you must win. Otherwise you'll be having your "fun" making new characters over and over again.

Also, just so we're clear, the definition of being "good" at a game is the ability to have your will be done. You are good at a game when you can make your wish your own command; when what you want can be demonstrated by your in-game avatar rather than your statements.

Powerful beings frequently do horrible things to less-powerful beings because to them it is fun, and they can do it because they are powerful. You want to have "fun?" Become powerful enough to make sport of whatever you want.

Plus fucking one.

I saw 2 players who were playing only for fun get out of a game because their BSFs did nothing but get hit in the face... and these guys didn't even know what their PCs could do...

JaronK

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2011, 06:15:39 AM »
It is, however, quite easy to go too far in the other direction.  I've definitely hit that point before, where you're so optimized it's not fun at all anymore.  When every problem can be solved by a spell, there's no creativity left... nothing can challenge you.  The fun is in getting around the restrictions... if there are none from the outset, then who cares?  Playing in god mode is only fun for a short while.  Eventually you want to be challenged again.

There's a good reason I stopped playing Archivist/Binder/Anima Mages and Shadowcraft Mages, and moved back down towards Factotums and Swordsages.  When you have enough abilities to be creative it's fun... but when you have enough abilities to completely shatter the campaign instantly, it's boring.

After all, Lord of the Rings would have been a really stupid series if Gandalf had just said "so, this ring could destroy us all.  I'm just gonna fly over on this eagle and destroy it.  After that, who wants lunch?"

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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2011, 06:20:17 AM »
Well, in my recent post (Not the one I quoted) I used the word "sport."

For me, sportsmanship has to do with seeking a challenge. There's is nothing sporting about god mode. I enjoy sport.
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Barbarossa

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2011, 06:38:38 AM »
How compatible are fun and efficiency in tabletop games?  What are your experiences?  What can GMs and game makers do to merge these more?
I always play for fun. I always encourage my players to play for fun. As long as they don't go full-out loony, it's fine by me. After all, as a DM my job is to make a balanced but challenging adventure for the players, and if they're having fun while doing it then I get to have fun too. If I have to stat up sixteen White Slaads for one random encounter just to put up some resistance, it's not fun.

Nytemare3701

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2011, 06:55:04 AM »
How compatible are fun and efficiency in tabletop games?  What are your experiences?

They CAN be compatible, if you have the right mindset. I use extremely efficient characters to make subpar actions viable. (pacifist Shadowcraft Mage, only shadow spells for the chosen spells. SO. MUCH. FUN.)

I guess I efficiently perform inefficient actions, averaging in fun for all. 100% efficiency breaks D&D. Being totally inefficient kills you. Both are unfun. Bending the game to your will in order to play the game you want to play...THAT is fun.

veekie

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2011, 06:57:29 AM »
It is, however, quite easy to go too far in the other direction.  I've definitely hit that point before, where you're so optimized it's not fun at all anymore.  When every problem can be solved by a spell, there's no creativity left... nothing can challenge you.  The fun is in getting around the restrictions... if there are none from the outset, then who cares?  Playing in god mode is only fun for a short while.  Eventually you want to be challenged again.
+1

The answer lies in moderation.
For casters this is easy, battlefield control spells ARE generally what I consider fun, and even AoE direct damage sometimes make a good showing. All you need to do is choose not to make the more trivializing stuff like divinations, planar binding and dungeon bypasses and you're in good stead. If you have skilled types in the party, let them do their thing over stealing the show. So for a caster, its just using a little restraint, or at the least, playing one with a fixed spell list(spontaneous types for example) rather than one that changes dramatically to fit the situation(goddamned divine prepared casters).

For everyone else, this is a headache. Effective melee strategies are often all or nothing. Sure, Ubercharging kills practically anything it rams into, but when you're not doing it, or when it lives, you're screwed, and it rather limits what you can do to be effective. D&D just isn't very good at cinematic melee combat, even with ToB.

For DMs, its complicated. Any decently optimised party will chew holes in encounters in a hurry, unless you make use of lots of moderately challenging foes over singular 'boss' types. Solo enemies die and fast, unless they go first and then probably some of your players do that instead.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2011, 09:55:05 AM »
Quote
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2011, 10:11:37 AM »
Ima do the lazy thing and pull my response from another thread:

If you enjoy playing, then you would probably prefer to live.

My reason for getting good at games where you can spend time "dead" was always that I wanted to play them, not sit out, and you can only play if you're alive. So you want to die as little as possible specifically so you can play as much as possible.

It's the same reason you want to have a positive kill/death spread in a competitive FPS. Sure it means your stats are good, but what it really means is you spent as little time as possible staring at the respawn screen. I enjoy rolling the dice to kill things more than I enjoy making characters (Which holds little fascination for me if I know I won't get to play them, character creation is only fun for me if I can convince myself I will play the character). So I build characters that can survive, because that is more fun than not surviving for me.

I know what you mean about just playing because it's fun, I play with friends so enjoy their company. However I spent most of this evening's session unconscious, which was a lot less fun than spending it killing things.


If you want to have fun, you must win. Otherwise you'll be having your "fun" making new characters over and over again.

Also, just so we're clear, the definition of being "good" at a game is the ability to have your will be done. You are good at a game when you can make your wish your own command; when what you want can be demonstrated by your in-game avatar rather than your statements.

Powerful beings frequently do horrible things to less-powerful beings because to them it is fun, and they can do it because they are powerful. You want to have "fun?" Become powerful enough to make sport of whatever you want.

Plus Fucking One.

Fun is efficiency, and efficiency is how you get to keep having fun.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Kajhera

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2011, 10:19:06 AM »
Part of what makes magic powerful is it allows for powerful options limited only by your creativity.

See: Silent Image, Polymorph-line, Minor Creation, Miracle...

Plenty of ways to win doing something entirely ridiculous.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2011, 02:16:40 PM »
Yes, having actual options certainly helps.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

SeekingKnight

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2011, 02:39:39 PM »
Fun is also keeping things rolling and not letting people become bored.  In low/no optimized games I know I will get bored because the options are taken away.  Yes god mode is boring but so it dying over and over and over again.  It takes practice to get good at something.  Does it really matter if one is "good" at table top games?  Honestly no considering that the majority of the public sees the table top community as dead in the water.  Just as much as imagination is gone because of everything people have seen.

Shadowhunter

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2011, 02:48:02 PM »
Endarire, why are you continuously posting these threads in the Min/Max forum?
Shouldn't they be in the D&D Deliberations forum?

To answer the question:
I don't play DnD nearly as much as I DM it. Unfortunately.
But when I play, I do not have fun playing inefficient characters.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject. Given that this topic will derail into a 30+ page "debate", I prefer to not get marked as a target by either side.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
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I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

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Bester

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2011, 03:03:13 PM »
Yes, having actual options certainly helps.

For some people, the bookkeeping aspect of having options is not worth it.  Any class that can actually do something either requires a ton of paperwork, or just gives one a headache(Factorum).

This is why my group is full of melees.  However, I wouldn't be caught dead not playing a caster at this point because I can do the bookkeeping, and enjoy the options it gives me.

Kajhera

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2011, 03:16:30 PM »
Yes, having actual options certainly helps.

For some people, the bookkeeping aspect of having options is not worth it.  Any class that can actually do something either requires a ton of paperwork, or just gives one a headache(Factorum).

This is why my group is full of melees.  However, I wouldn't be caught dead not playing a caster at this point because I can do the bookkeeping, and enjoy the options it gives me.

I love psions for this reason. Not a ton of book-keeping compared to a Vancian caster, but I can get as creative with my Astral Construct forms or whatnot as I want.

Littha

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2011, 03:19:49 PM »
Yes, having actual options certainly helps.

For some people, the bookkeeping aspect of having options is not worth it.  Any class that can actually do something either requires a ton of paperwork, or just gives one a headache(Factorum).

This is why my group is full of melees.  However, I wouldn't be caught dead not playing a caster at this point because I can do the bookkeeping, and enjoy the options it gives me.

I love psions for this reason. Not a ton of book-keeping compared to a Vancian caster, but I can get as creative with my Astral Construct forms or whatnot as I want.

My favourite class is artificer... god of book keeping.

SeekingKnight

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2011, 03:28:00 PM »
Sorry for the negative post before.  I think that if one is efficient then things tend to go smoother in battle, which is what the majority of 3.x consists of.  Options are wonderful and a needed evil in this type of game. 

Bester

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2011, 03:37:18 PM »
Love for book-keeping seems to be an "Always DM, never a Player" trait.  If I slave hours over an adventure, I will slave hours over my character.  Or at least brainstorm the character before the first session.

Honestly, how many players do you know that do that?

SeekingKnight

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Re: Fun vs. Efficiency
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2011, 03:39:34 PM »
I do Bester.  I do so with both background and optimization.  When DM fiat takes over in a game or house rules become wonky then I feel I wasted my time.