Author Topic: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2  (Read 22793 times)

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juton

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2011, 09:58:14 PM »
Raise Dead cannot be used as a Supernatural effect via Dweomerkeeper. It must be a spell with casting time up to 1 standard action. Raise Dead is 1 minute.



Rapid Spell + DMM Quicken Spell?

ZeroSpace

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2011, 01:13:32 AM »
Another thought on IP for low tier classes; the luck feats from Complete Scoundrel. Specifically, Dumb Luck (nat1 on save -> nat20 1/day), Survivor's Luck (reroll save as immediate action), and Unbelievable Luck (+2 to worst save and more rerolls). They all require at least one other luck feat to get started, which kinda chews, but meh, I'm kinda partial to Lucky Start (reroll init) anyways. Beyond those, the only ones that are decent are Advantageous Avoidance, Better Lucky Than Good, Fortuitous Strike, Make Your Own Luck, Third Time's the Charm, and Tempting Fate.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2011, 01:23:05 AM »
Another thought on IP for low tier classes; the luck feats from Complete Scoundrel. Specifically, Dumb Luck (nat1 on save -> nat20 1/day), Survivor's Luck (reroll save as immediate action), and Unbelievable Luck (+2 to worst save and more rerolls). They all require at least one other luck feat to get started, which kinda chews, but meh, I'm kinda partial to Lucky Start (reroll init) anyways. Beyond those, the only ones that are decent are Advantageous Avoidance, Better Lucky Than Good, Fortuitous Strike, Make Your Own Luck, Third Time's the Charm, and Tempting Fate.
Planar Touchstone (Pride Domain) will lower the chances of a critical failure from 5% to 0.25%.

lans

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2011, 02:33:52 AM »
Thanks, I was going to look into luck feats. I just completely forgot about them.

The touchstone is nice. I'll add it tomorrow.
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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2011, 05:19:15 AM »
Note that cheap castings of Raise Dead via Dweomerkeeper still does not offset the level loss.  Revivify, however, doesn't have the level loss to begin with.  If you're concerned about getting to a corpse in time to revive it, look to get Delay Death (and, if you're going to get that, might as well also grab Beastland Ferocity).

SeekingKnight

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2011, 02:21:20 PM »
Inquiry:  Since feats are very finite, typically 7-8 (8 being human or strongheart halfling or some race with a bonus feat), why would one waste it on a luck feat?  Wouldn't it be more intelligent to put the feat into something the character can use?

Gods_Trick

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2011, 03:01:08 PM »
Inquiry:  Since feats are very finite, typically 7-8 (8 being human or strongheart halfling or some race with a bonus feat), why would one waste it on a luck feat?  Wouldn't it be more intelligent to put the feat into something the character can use?

Thing is, mundane characters don't have to many ways to IP proof as we know. The luck feats are a choice to IP proof (somewhat) at the cost of effectiveness.

Which in Lit context is funny because most heroes in fantasy are very lucky.

SeekingKnight

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2011, 03:16:55 PM »
Thing is, mundane characters don't have to many ways to IP proof as we know. The luck feats are a choice to IP proof (somewhat) at the cost of effectiveness.

Which in Lit context is funny because most heroes in fantasy are very lucky.

So, in a way, being a non-caster is not a viable choice.  Now I know this thread is about being IP Proofed for lower tiers but, in my humble opinion, that is simply impossible.  If one has to spend precious feats on things like luck feats then getting feats to help defeat enemies easier then Sunic is more then 100% right.  Now I like to be proven wrong.

JaronK

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2011, 03:38:44 PM »
IP Proofed T3:  Learnean Lumi Warblade 1 with Iron Heart Surge and Moment of Perfect Mind.

You're a level 11 character with just 5 HD, but you explicitly can't die except from the Disintegrate spell.  Sweet.  Not too hard to get immune to that one spell.  You also can't be blinded or dazzled, and you can just shrug off any other condition with Iron Heart Surge.  MoPM should handle outliers.  Also, you have a really sweet TWF-style ability.

Or, for a more normal game, Necropolitan really does just solve everything.  Check out the blanket immunities:
A:  Immune to every fort save effect that doesn't target objects.  That's pretty much all of them (except disintegrate, darn it).
B:  Immune to Mind Effecting.  This includes all fear effects.
C:  For classes that don't have large HD, tons of free hitpoints.  By doing the ritual with a UA Variant Necromancer or Dread Necromancer 8 in an area with a desecrated shrine, you get D12+4 HP/HD.  That's equivalent to a d6 class having 22 con.
D:  Since you can completely dump Con, you can reduce MAD issues and make some classes completely SAD
E:  Immune to ability drain, physical ability damage, and level drain.  Now you can wield a lifedrinker... which is just about the greatest weapon ever (two negative levels per hit ROCKS!  And it's roughly equivalent in price to a +2 enchantment!).  Amazing for anyone who can generate lots of hits, and not bad for everyone else.
F:  Immune to Poison, Sleep effects, Paralysis, Stunning, Disease, and Death Effects. 
G:  Immune to Critical Hits... as well as nonlethal damage if you care about that.
H:  Immune (and in fact healed by) the entire Inflict line, plus Harm.
I:  Immune to death from massive damage

All this for just 3kgp and a lost level (which can be gained back quickly).  You're also now vulnerable to stuff that targets undead, but actually have boosted resistance to those things.  And yes, using Disguise virtually guarantees that no one hits you with undead targeting stuff if you keep the disguise up all the time.  Why wouldn't you?  And now some poor Cleric will try to kill you with Harm and you'll giggle (but kill him quick before he thinks of using Turn Undead!).  You even get +4 enhancement bonus to Str and Dex as a parting gift, along with Darkvision, and if someone creates Permanent Black Sand (easy to do, just kill someone with the Black Sand spell) you get Fast Healing 1d6 by putting some in your boots.

Another important thing to consider is that a Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind will run you 3kgp.  Adding the effect to an existing ring is just 4500gp.  Doing this on both your rings lets you have Moment of Perfect Mind and Mind Over Body... that's one guaranteed passed fort save and will save once per encounter.  Assuming your encounters go quickly, that should be sufficient to protect you from anything save based.  While you're at it, Boots of Sidestepping from Dungeonscape are also super cheap and will often completely protect you from anything that targets reflex saves.  None of these are quite as good as full out immunity but they generally get the job done.

JaronK


JaronK

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2011, 04:09:19 PM »
I should also mention for defense the Ring of Spellbattle from MiC is reasonably cheap and you can use it to identify spells being cast (and you automatically know when anyone tries nearby)... and once per day you can just redirect an incoming spell to any legal target.  That's one heck of a way to deal with enemy casters, just make them it themselves with their opening attack.

JaronK

bearsarebrown

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2011, 04:13:53 PM »
Wedded To The Light will remove vulnerabilities dependent on creature type. If the DM is pushing anti-undead abilities this is a no-brainer.

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2011, 04:20:30 PM »
Inquiry:  Since feats are very finite, typically 7-8 (8 being human or strongheart halfling or some race with a bonus feat), why would one waste it on a luck feat?  Wouldn't it be more intelligent to put the feat into something the character can use?
Because rolling a natural 1 on a saving throw typically means death.  Over the course of a given day, you're probably going to roll about 10 saving throws (more if you face multiple casters each encounter, or go for several encounters a day).  This means that you're actually pretty likely to roll a natural 1 sooner or later.  Survivors Luck and Dumb Luck will essentially negate that natural 1, and therefore you don't die from missing a saving throw.  In all seriousness, Survivor's Luck is one of the best feats in the game, and Dumb Luck isn't terrible, either.

bearsarebrown

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2011, 04:23:31 PM »
CSco has a magical location for only 6000g that grants a Luck feat permanently.

SeekingKnight

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2011, 04:31:43 PM »
Good points all.  Personally I am not much for luck feats but all of you do show that they can be helpful.  Still seems like a bit of a resource hog to get IP proofed at lower tiers though.

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2011, 07:41:38 PM »
I know that psywars are definitely IP-proofable, as are factotums and ToB classes. Really, T-3 classes are a bit more difficult than the stronger tiers, but are by no means struggling for it.

T-4 and below, however...
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JaronK

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2011, 07:50:46 PM »
Doing it for T4 and below really doesn't involve the class very much at all, and just becomes a game of how much you can do with items, race, and feats.  Luckily, race and items can actually do a lot if you know where to look (I'd rather not spend the skills, personally).

JaronK

lans

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2011, 11:34:50 PM »
Their are a few bits. Fighters get the 1/2 BAB to will ability, auras that several classes have, Invisible Fist, etc. More stuff can be gotten from outside the class in most cases.

Ex What gives the Warmage more- the ACF that lets them have non evoc spells for their advanced learning, or the Lightkeeper Sovereign Arch type?
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Mushroom

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2011, 01:23:56 AM »
Necropolitan
Can't you be an Elf Necropolitan and take the Faeri mysteries initiate feat to offset not having con?

JaronK

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2011, 01:41:11 AM »
Can't you be an Elf Necropolitan and take the Faeri mysteries initiate feat to offset not having con?

I believe that does work, yes.

JaronK