Author Topic: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2  (Read 22794 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2011, 08:35:28 PM »
Teamwork requires actual abilities to work together. Since the low tiers don't have those, that's why they're low tier...
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IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2011, 08:41:39 PM »
However, with cooperation, weak abilities can be used to cover for other weak abilities, they don't have a choice, if they don't cooperate they're almost entirely useless, whereas strong abilities can be used either way, since they're already sufficient to their task.

Also, weak classes have the odd strong ability. Just because the sum is weak, doesn't mean the parts are.
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[spoiler]
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[/spoiler]

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SeekingKnight

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2011, 08:44:22 PM »
I agree with what Sunic said from experience.  Lower end tiers usually, again usually, do about a mad zerg rush to beat an enemy instead of tactics.  I best add this in:  Not everyone DMs the same.  I say this because I know people who believe that blaster wizards, heal boy cleric, and the BSF are valid choices.  Many, again not all, believe in this.

Thank you

Edit:  A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.  Stress the link and the chain Fails.

veekie

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2011, 08:50:18 PM »
Take the metaphor another way, Chainmail works fine even if some of the links are pretty fail.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

SeekingKnight

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2011, 09:14:27 PM »
Well no it doesn't.  See, thank you Dirty Jobs, if your chainmail has weak links then an enemy can find them and exploit them.  Dirty Jobs showed then when Mike was looking for sharks in chainmail.  It had to be seemless.  I also play Amtgard and we use chainmail, yes with foam weapons but not the point.  Having a solid chainmail is wonderful as it can cover holes in defense.  I believe the SCA would say the same thing and they use rapiers.

veekie

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2011, 09:26:13 PM »
Chainmail with weak links > Weak links lying loose though.
Thats the idea. Its not that they don't suck, it's that they NEED the help not to suck.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

lans

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2011, 11:58:36 PM »
Teamwork requires actual abilities to work together. Since the low tiers don't have those, that's why they're low tier...
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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2011, 01:12:10 AM »
Teamwork requires actual abilities to work together. Since the low tiers don't have those, that's why they're low tier...
Hi Welcome
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[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

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Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
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lans

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2011, 03:30:19 AM »
Teamwork requires actual abilities to work together. Since the low tiers don't have those, that's why they're low tier...
Hi Welcome
:bigeye
Yeah, I really shouldn't have done that.
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Talore

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2011, 03:31:17 AM »
Please don't start this again. This is why we have a new fucking thread in the first place, wipe your feet of the crap before stepping in. All parties

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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2011, 03:37:22 AM »
Please don't start this again. This is why we have a new fucking thread in the first place, wipe your feet of the crap before stepping in. All parties

 :beathorse

If only the site had moderators, then backseat modding wouldn't be necessary...
It hasn't? :twitch
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Carnap

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2011, 04:54:28 AM »
Shared defense.  Do you mean Magic Circle against something?  See if I was dm and I saw a clump of characters following one guy with a shield it would be aoe plus control.  Btw Kelgores Grave Mist is at most 3rd level so low level games can have it.
I'm not familer with it, but Magic Circle would be an example of this, as would Marshal abilities.

What book is Kelgore's Grave Mist from?

It's 1st or 2nd level area spell from PHBII, which deals cold damage and makes targets fatigue.

Gods_Trick

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2011, 05:13:06 AM »

Certainly way more challenging. Above Tier 3 you have an array of I win buttons. So the weaknesses of the class make it more work, but they're some who like that type of work SeekingKnight.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2011, 10:19:36 AM »
I agree with what Sunic said from experience.  Lower end tiers usually, again usually, do about a mad zerg rush to beat an enemy instead of tactics.

Well yes, because they have no choice but to DPS race it down. They lack the actual abilities to make working together mean anything.

Ignoring more Fail.
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

X-Codes

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2011, 03:57:16 PM »
Please don't start this again. This is why we have a new fucking thread in the first place, wipe your feet of the crap before stepping in. All parties

 :beathorse

If only the site had moderators, then backseat modding wouldn't be necessary...
It hasn't? :twitch
It does, but the approach to moderating is intentionally hands-off.  The forum at-large is generally expected to be mature and respectful of the other forum-goers, and, for any thread that Sunic doesn't post in at least, it works.

lans

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2011, 08:19:11 PM »
But then you have a bad save or made your best save worse.  So smartly played baddies can capitalize on this. 
I was thinking on this.
 If you dump reflex what hurts you?
Area Effects that largely do damage, or lock you down such as Web
How common are these? The former are fairly common, the latter not so much as most of the BC spells lack a save.
 Can you protect yourself without a save?
Energy Resistances, and a lot of hp for the former. Teleportation and Freedom of Movement for the latter.
Do these alternitave defenses also protect you vs other things?
Yes, the Energy resistances and HP help vs Rays, and attacks. The Teleportation and FoM protect vs nonsave battlefield control.

If you Dump Will what hurts you?
Mind effecting abilities, some damage spells, teleportation
How common are these?
Mind effecting abilities are common, the damage is less so, teleportation is pretty rare.
Are their other ways to protect yourself?
Yes, protection from X and various other easily accessible immunities, high hp for the damage spells. Teleportation is lacking, but its not a kill and is rare a hell.
Do these protections help with other things?
Protection from X hedges summons, high hp helps vs common attack methods.

Did I miss anything here?
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juton

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2011, 08:45:42 PM »
I was just thinking, no matter what you do someone is in your group is going to bring a fail character. Be it a monk or samurai, it's going to end the same way, hilarious character death. So instead of trying to get your friends not to be morons, why not try and make resurrections as cheap as possible, as in free. I'm thinking Cleric of Mystra 5 (or anything with the spell domain) then 4 level of Dweomerkeeper, you'll be casting raise dead once per day for free. Now nobody needs to learn from their mistakes!

lans

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2011, 11:14:49 PM »
At that point you can buff them to not drop, and use the immediate action cure spell.
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SeekingKnight

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2011, 03:51:23 PM »
Okay, if you go the route of making rezzes cheap then a few things are going to happen.  One is a player learns that no matter what kind of crappy thing (s)he throws together the party and/or DM will be there to save his/her butt.  If, and I know a big if, said player meets others whom will not allow him to be a weak link then said player gets discouraged and the hobby loses a player.

Also consider that a crappy character will, or at least in theory, will slow down the party a lot as said character will need to be rezzed often.  It will also cheapen the feeling of being heroic because someone can just buy a rezz cheap.  So much for undead since people will just raise their loved one, yes I am being over simple but the point is across.

As a friend of mine said, "If you wish to eat you have to work."  What that means to me in this context is having a player who has little in the way of IP Proofing or optimization (which means even basic levels.  Like not taking monk for more then two levels) will harm that player more in the long run.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 04:26:21 PM by SeekingKnight »

Archao

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Re: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2011, 08:23:53 PM »
Raise Dead cannot be used as a Supernatural effect via Dweomerkeeper. It must be a spell with casting time up to 1 standard action. Raise Dead is 1 minute.