Author Topic: Fuck You to casters.  (Read 60863 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2011, 08:04:25 AM »
Analogy time.
1. One box holds grapes.
2. One box holds apples.
3. One box holes oranges.
4. You have a banana and must put it in one of those three boxes.
Solvable?

Funny, I don't see a box in there that says "all remaining fruit goes in this box" which is a clause Na effectively has.  Nor do I see a rule that says "all fruit that is edible goes into one of the first three boxes" which is what MM says about it.

That's the reason you're wrong.  But I do notice you cut out all the rules quotes as "JaronK fail" and replaced it with a random irrelevant analogy.

Quote
You think so and refuse to acknowledge anything that says otherwise. Yes it is stated in the updated rules of the RC anything that produces spells is a Su or Sp ability.

No, it says classes that are not spellcasters produce magical effects via Su or Sp abilities... but since "Magical effects" are often separated from "spells" (even in the very rules quotes you just deleted as "JaronK fail") and it just said it's not talking about spellcasters, that doesn't say much does it?  Look at Antimagic again if you need to. 

Quote
The outdated rules in the PHB state is must be a Ex, Su, or Sp ability.

See, this is how I know you don't even read the rules.  As I just quoted in the part you deleted (the JaronK fail), the Monster Manual says that.

Quote
My point, the one you love to ignore, is that spellcasting remains unmarked.

Except for Arcane Talent, where it's marked (Ex).  Also, TONS of abilities are unmarked.  Fighter Bonus Feats is, for example, unmarked.  That doesn't mean the Bonus Feats ability of a Fighter isn't an ability.  It means you have to look at the rules that summarize the ability types to figure out what they are.  Since the rules (JaronK fail, right?) say that all abilities must be Su, Sp, Ex, or Na (That would be PHB 180) and furthmore that all special abilities must be Su, Sp, or Ex (that's Monster Manual and SRD), nothing can be untyped, EVER.

Quote
Say it is one over the other is pure house rules.

No, saying it's untyped when the rules say it must have a type is house rules.  Saying it has one type over the other based on what the books say is rules analysis.  It's made easier by quotes that say all special abilities must be Ex, Sp, or Su, combined with quotes that say "spells, Su abilities, and Sp abilities." 

Quote
What you don't get is your justification towards to picking one is still the same BS as me picking Su, or even Sp.

No, because the rules NEVER say they're Su or Sp.  They do say they're Ex directly (MMV) and indirectly (Antimagic Field + Monster Manual).  That's the difference.  I read what the rules say, and you read what you want them to say and then refer to everything that directly contradicts your interpretation as "JaronK fail."  Including direct quotes on the topic.

Quote
And further all three of those pickings fall short of the rules as printed. But then again, you've never cared about raw, rai, rules, or even sanity. You pick the desired answer and spend three minutes googling support for it before spamming it as absolute fact.

Googled SRD, read the Monster Manual, read PHB, read every single thing you linked me to (all of which was against your case... did you even read it?).  It's called actually reading rules, not making stuff up.  Calling any ability "untyped" is making stuff up.

Quote
Side note. Arcane Talent grants the ability to cast as an X level sorcerer. Whom if you've ever read the PHB you'll know has unmarked spellcasting. It's an Ex ability granting untyped ability plus illogical leap saying the untyped is Ex due to an Ex granting it. Akin to saying evasion is a magical ability thus lost in antimagic because a Ring of Evasion doesn't work in one.

Arcane Talent is the only example of a spell ability that explicitly tells you what it is.  If that were all we had, you might have something here... but since we have so many implicit declarations, it ends up being just one more nail in the coffin.  You seem to be claiming that unmarked abilities are all untyped, but that's silly. In fact, they're virtually always Ex (Sp abilities are always labeled and tell you the caster level, while Su abilities are virtually always labeled.  Na abilities are rarely listed as abilities and never listed under "special abilities," "special attacks," or in a class features table.  As such, any ability you see under Special Abilities or Special Attacks that's unlabeled, or found in a class features table, is Ex).

And the big thing a lot of people are missing is this:

Abilities must be one of the four types.  Special abilities must be one of the three (Ex, Sp, Su).  But things that are not abilities are never those types.

"Spells" is an ability, usually found in the Special Attacks part of a table.  As such, it must be Ex, Sp, or Su, and is the ability to cast spells.

Similarly "Fly" is an ability to fly, which is usually Na (if the creature has wings) or Su (if it doesn't) but is occasionally also gained by a spell.  It is your ability to fly.

Spells themselves are not an ability.  They are an effect.  Wizards can use the "Spells" Ex ability to cast spells (which are not Ex).

Flying itself is not an ability, it's an action.  A Solar uses its "fly 90ft" ability to fly around.

An antimagic field does not stop you from using your "Spells" ability at all.  This fact is found in the very article you linked, where it says you can cast your spells just fine.  The ability itself is not suppressed at all.  However, the spells themselves are (as are Sp and Su abilities, which are listed as being separate and don't function), and have no effect until you leave the field.

When you're underwater, a Solar still has its "fly 90ft" Na ability.  However, despite the fact that the ability works just fine, he can't use it here because he's under water.

See the difference?

But clearly, the rules state that A:  Spells are an ability and B:  all abilities have types.  This is trivially true and stated twice in the Monster Manual, once (or twice, I forget) in the Rules Compendium, at least once in the SRD, once in the PHB, and at least once in the Rules of the Game article on Polymorph.  The fact that you're trying to contradict five different rules books with made up stuff about bananas should tell you to give up.

JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2011, 09:50:19 AM »
Arcane Talent isn't the only one either.

Lilith has 9th level Cleric casting as an Ex too.

However, both abilities are named Ex abilities that aren't spellcasting, but are "the ability to cast spells as an Xth level Y."

JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2011, 12:21:48 PM »
Arcane Talent isn't the only one either.

Lilith has 9th level Cleric casting as an Ex too.

However, both abilities are named Ex abilities that aren't spellcasting, but are "the ability to cast spells as an Xth level Y."

Where is Lilith stated out?  I've missed that one...

Still the fact that the ability to cast spells as an Xth level Y is always X is not a slam dunk "this is just what it is."  But it's yet another piece of evidence that the ability to cast spells itself is Ex (as opposed to the spells themselves).  You need to put together a lot of different implied statements.  These two together nail it pretty well though:

SRD Special Abilities:  "A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature. "

SRD Antimagic Field:  "The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities."

So, Spells are a Special Attack (see any monster entry) and are thus a Special Ability.  Due to sentence A they must be Ex, Sp, or Su.  Due to sentence B they're not Sp or Su.  QED:  They're Ex.

There's other ways to do it though.  Lots of places talk about abilities and help to nail it down, but you do have to go through and read them all to really be sure.

JaronK

wotmaniac

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2011, 01:02:00 PM »
Spells (and, thus, spellcasting) is not a "special ability"; and, therefor, does not fall in to any of those "special ability" categories.  If it was a "special ability", then yes, it would have to fall in to one of the 4 categories ... but it's not, so it doesn't.
I know that I said this on the last page; but, apparently, I didn't provide sufficient text to settle anything.  Let's try this ...

THESIS: spellcasting is not an ability, but a process.  spells are the result of that process.

What seems to be missing from this whole thing is certain text that didn't make it to either the SRD nor the RC (which means that I don't have a way to copy-paste, and was too lazy to post it ... until now):
First, let's look at a couple of definitions (I know that some of this is going to be/seem redundant; but such has purpose, so bear with me and wlak with me step-by-step):
Quote from: Player's Handbook
[spoiler]
[p.313]
spellcaster: a character capable of casting spells
[...]
[p.312]
spell: a one-time magical efect
[...]
[p.313]
spell slot: a "space" in a spellcaster's mind dedicated to holding a spell of a particular spell level.
[...]
[p.313]
spell level: a number from 0 to 9 that indicates the general power of a spell.
[/spoiler]
Now let's see what this very same source says about special abilities:
Quote from: Player's Handbook
[spoiler]
[p.310]
natural ability: a non-magical capability, such as walking, swimming (for aquatic creatures), and flight (for winged creatures).
[...]
[p.308]
extraordinary ability (Ex): a non-magical special ability (as opposed to a spell-like or supernatural ability)
[...]
[p.313]
spell-like ability (Sp): a special ability with effects that resemble those of a spell.  In most cases, a spell-like ability works just like spell of the same name.
[...]
[p.314]
supernatural ability (Su): a magical power that produces a particular effect, as opposed to a natural, extraordinary, or spell-like ability.
[/spoiler]
By this point, I believe that we can already rule-out all 4 types of "special abilities", simply based on process of elimination.  As we can see, spellcasting definitionally cannot be natural or extraordinary.  Also, we can rule-out spell-like ability, since they merely "resemble" spells, and thus aren't actually spells, per se -- they're simply "like" spells.  Additionally, spellcasting cannot be a supernatural ability, for the simple reason that they operate on completely different sets of rules (aside from being shut-down in an AMF .... which, duh, they both happen to be magical effects); furthermore, supernatural abilities aren't classified as being either arcane or divine, as are spells (as per PHB, p.169).

But, if you're still not convinced, let's look a couple of other things:
Quote from: Monster Manual, p.315
Spells: Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly).  Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are [...]
And, one more time, for emphasis:
Quote from: Rules Compendium, p.118
Special Abilities
[...]
Some creatures can create magical effects without being
spellcasters.
Characters using particular class features can
also create magical effects. These effects come in two types,
spell-like and supernatural.
(emphasis mine)
The first thing that this clearly implies is that spellcasting is different from spell-like or supernatural special abilities.
And before somebody goes off on "but it also talks about class features ...  :blah " -- within context, this is clearly referring to non-spellcasting class features (of which there are plenty).
If it does not fit one of the 4 prescribed types of "special abilities", then it must be something else.

Conclusion: spellcasting is not a "special ability", per se, and therefor not subject to being classified in to one of the 4 "special ability" categories. 
Spellcasting is just that -- casting a spell.  It is a process.  And that process produces a "thing" -- much like building a house or baking a cake; but instead of that "thing" being a house or a cake, that "thing" happens to be a spell.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 01:04:42 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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The_Laughing_Man

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2011, 02:36:07 PM »
Back to basics..

Quote from: 3.5 PHB p.7
[spoiler]ABILITIES AND SPELLCASTERS
The ability that governs bonus spells (see Chapter 3:
Classes) depends on what type of spellcaster your
character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics,
druids, paladins, and rangers; or Charisma for sorcerers and
bards. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster
must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of
a given spell level.

Like wotmaniac convincingly stated above spellcasting is a process. To be able to cast a spell is dependant on ability scores and class levels (now, there is also a feat that lets you cast arcane spells). If you don't have the prerequisites fulfilled then no spellcasting is possible.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 02:47:25 PM by The_Laughing_Man »

snakeman830

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2011, 02:37:38 PM »
And, how exactly is that different from, say, Improved Grab.  If your foe is the same size or larger than you, then the prerequisites for using the ability are not fulfilled and you can't use it.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Mixster

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2011, 03:14:10 PM »
So the argument is that spellcasting is not a special ability? But some new thing you've just made up?

Assume that the ability to cast spells is not magical, but the spell itself is, this is never debunked in the rules (if so, please quote rule, source and page). How would that fit within your thesis?

Your entire argument bases on the fact that Special Abilities are either Ex, Su or Sp. And you just remove Ex, without actually telling anyone how you got to that logical conclusion. Thus your conclusion is not logical.

The word process are to my knowledge never mentioned in the rules, why are spells processes? Isn't making up something new more of a house rule than trying to define something within the rules of the game?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2011, 03:47:28 PM »
So the argument is that spellcasting is not a special ability? But some new thing you've just made up?

Assume that the ability to cast spells is not magical, but the spell itself is, this is never debunked in the rules (if so, please quote rule, source and page). How would that fit within your thesis?

Your entire argument bases on the fact that Special Abilities are either Ex, Su or Sp. And you just remove Ex, without actually telling anyone how you got to that logical conclusion. Thus your conclusion is not logical.

The word process are to my knowledge never mentioned in the rules, why are spells processes? Isn't making up something new more of a house rule than trying to define something within the rules of the game?

This is Jaron you're talking about. Get used to "new things he just made up", "his conclusion is not logical", and other such fail.

Remember, anything that supports his argument is acceptable, and anything else is something he will pretend he did not hear.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2011, 03:55:52 PM »
So the argument is that spellcasting is not a special ability? But some new thing you've just made up?

Assume that the ability to cast spells is not magical, but the spell itself is, this is never debunked in the rules (if so, please quote rule, source and page). How would that fit within your thesis?

Your entire argument bases on the fact that Special Abilities are either Ex, Su or Sp. And you just remove Ex, without actually telling anyone how you got to that logical conclusion. Thus your conclusion is not logical.

The word process are to my knowledge never mentioned in the rules, why are spells processes? Isn't making up something new more of a house rule than trying to define something within the rules of the game?

This is Jaron you're talking about. Get used to "new things he just made up", "his conclusion is not logical", and other such fail.

Remember, anything that supports his argument is acceptable, and anything else is something he will pretend he did not hear.
He's not responding to JaronK, he's responding to wotmaniac.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2011, 03:58:20 PM »
Well, Jaron is the "herp derp spellcasting is Ex, so you totally get it with Polymorph" guy. Which of course is completely fucking retarded, but again. Jaron. What did you expect to happen?
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Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2011, 03:59:49 PM »
Well, Jaron is the "herp derp spellcasting is Ex, so you totally get it with Polymorph" guy. Which of course is completely fucking retarded, but again. Jaron. What did you expect to happen?
To be honest, though, that is what the rules imply...

They're definitely special abilities, and Sp and Su are defined by how they are not spells, so...
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 04:02:41 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

wotmaniac

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2011, 04:07:03 PM »
Oh, and I forgot to include one last piece of text:
Under the "Class Descriptions" section of PHB, ch.3:
Quote from: Player's Handbook, p.24
Class features: Special characteristics of the class.  [...]  Class features include some or all of the following:
  Weapon and Armor Proficiency: [...]
  Spells: Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, and bards use spells.  Fighters, barbarians, rogues, and monks do not.  Rangers and paladins gain the ability to use spells at 4th level.
  Other Features: [...]
  Some abilities are supernatural or spell-like.  Using a spell-like ability is essentially like casting a spell [...], and it provokes attacks of opportunity.  Using a supernatural ability is not like casting a spell.  [...]
If spellcasting were indeed a "special ability", then why is there such distinction?

Now, ....
*sigh*
So the argument is that spellcasting is not a special ability? But some new thing you've just made up?
[...]
The word process are to my knowledge never mentioned in the rules, why are spells processes? Isn't making up something new more of a house rule than trying to define something within the rules of the game?

I haven't made anything up -- there's no "new thing"; my use of the word "process" was a descriptive term (as opposed to a defining term), used to try to better explain the whole issue at hand.

Quote
Assume that the ability to cast spells is not magical, but the spell itself is, this is never debunked in the rules (if so, please quote rule, source and page). How would that fit within your thesis?
while I agree with this statement, it has no real effect or bearing on my thesis.

Quote
Your entire argument bases on the fact that Special Abilities are either Ex, Su or Sp. And you just remove Ex, without actually telling anyone how you got to that logical conclusion. Thus your conclusion is not logical.
actually, I did explain how Ex was eliminated -- it was in the same paragraph in which I eliminated all of the 4 "special ability" categories as being pertinent to spells.

Just because spells aren't classified as a "special ability" doesn't mean that they are now their own new thing.  Spells are a magical effect -- nothing more.  The ability to cast spells is just that.  "Spells" and "spellcasting" is actually its own thing -- it's never defined as anything else; it is defined, but never as part of anything else .... which leads me to believe that it is indeed it's own thing.  The fact that it is used in contrast with "special abilities" seems to imply that it is indeed not a "special ability" (and, thus, trying to categorize it as Ex, Su, Sp, whatever, is pointless)
.
What is building a house?  is that a "special ability"?  No, it's just something you can do because you learned how to do it (I used the word "process" because that was the word that came to mind that seemed to accurately describe it).
Additionally, just because you can describe something as being a process doesn't mean

Special note on terms:
- just because the word "ability" happens to show up in a sentence doesn't mean that it's an official D&D term -- by itself, it is just a descriptive word meant to convey and idea.
- "special ability", on the other hand, is a specific thing, that has a specific definition and a specific usage.


 :plot
you know what? ...
Quote
Assume that the ability to cast spells is not magical, but the spell itself is, this is never debunked in the rules (if so, please quote rule, source and page). How would that fit within your thesis?
The more I think on this, the more inclined I am to just say fuck it, and call it a "natural ability" -- if it has to be classified as a special ability, then that's all it can be.

so -- NEW THESIS: Spellcasting is a "natural ability".  A spell is the result of putting that ability to use -- the final product, if you will.

Thank you Mixster. :)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 04:14:09 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
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snakeman830

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2011, 04:13:13 PM »
If it's a special ability, it is by definition not a natural ability.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

wotmaniac

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2011, 04:16:55 PM »
If it's a special ability, it is by definition not a natural ability.
A-ha!
I (and thus you) was wrong.
there is nothing magical about the ability to cast spells.  spellcasting (the ability) is not in-and-of-itself magical -- the resulting spell might be, but that's actually something different.

"natural abilities" are the only abilities that are not specifically marked (as opposed to Ex, Su, and Sp).

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

snakeman830

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2011, 04:32:58 PM »
If it's a special ability, it is by definition not a natural ability.
A-ha!
I (and thus you) was wrong.
there is nothing magical about the ability to cast spells.  spellcasting (the ability) is not in-and-of-itself magical -- the resulting spell might be, but that's actually something different.

"natural abilities" are the only abilities that are not specifically marked (as opposed to Ex, Su, and Sp).
[/quoteWhile technically true, natural abilities are also not listed under "special attacks" or "special qualities", yet spells are.  By the fact they are listed under such, we can assume that they are somehow "special", or "non-natural".
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2011, 04:52:41 PM »
@ Sunic_Flames
Fuck You (fits the thread :D).
Don't butt in when adults are speaking.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 04:57:37 PM by Anarchy_Kanya »
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[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #76 on: February 28, 2011, 04:57:45 PM »
@ Sunic_Flames
Fuck You (fits the thread :D).
Vevo cockblocked it for those in the US.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #77 on: February 28, 2011, 05:06:10 PM »
Whaaaat? O_o
Maybe this: Fuck You.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

archangel.arcanis

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    • Email
Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #78 on: February 28, 2011, 05:09:11 PM »
Whaaaat? O_o
Maybe this: Fuck You.
That one appears to work if you sign in, due to the must be 18 requirement.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #79 on: February 28, 2011, 05:27:41 PM »
The conclusion should be clear: spellcasting is not an ability at all.

Disclaimer: this message does not necessarily represent the opinions of the poster, BeholderSlayer. Well, at least not based on the exact wording of the rules.

Common sense, of course, would lead to this conclusion.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]