Both of you have admitted new sources1, changed your arguments2, generally had a modicum of sense3, (and both convinced me of a portion of your argument)4.
Stop claiming otherwise.
1. I always admit new official sources. It's opinions I don't value.
2. Really? My point and 90% of the way I've reached it is unchanged.
A. Spells Special Abilities in every other instance than the one quote JaronK has is treated and remarked as a separate entity from Special Abilities.
A1. He bitches about the lack of text doesn't prove anything, I bitch the the lack of text doesn't mean he can invent his own.
For reference, I point out it's not a lack of rules at all. The entry rules states all SA's are relisted, the entry rules states all special abilities are explained in the last block, and "Spells" is never listed in either. Also there are countless Spells or Special Abilities notations (rather than treatign them as one and the same) though out every book and the FAQ. To him that is a lack of text.
B. Spellcasting is unmarked, to sort it at all is a house rule. Especially when arguments to and against multiple traits exist.
As mentioned, Natural Ability is the only one with an absolute direct claim via RAW. It lays claim on all unmarked traits. JaronK ignores this based entirely on it's opening statement about being an ability granted via your form. Akin to saying Powerful Build makes you a large creature by ignoring the rules following that line. so his other line of defense was Na doesn't not exist in an area with Special Abilities are, quoting Class Features as his source since all Class Features are a Special Ability. Later he conceded that but hasn't budged on Na. More on this in C & D.
C. We had a huge breakdown as JaronK invented more fallacies to play in.
J: Spellcasting is uninterruptible.
Other: While casting your AoO can cause it to fail.
J: Spellcasting is uninterruptible. That's concentration failing.
Me: Spell failing to conform states spellcasting fails.
J: Spellcasting is interruptible. That was the action of spellcasting.
Me: WTF? You just said everything is uninterruptible. You can't fail to use a Sp ability because to you the action failed and not the Sp.
J: Spellcasting is uninterruptible.
Me: You do realize by classifying everything interruptible to be the action thereof which in turn made everything uninterruptible you have completely invalidated the extraordinary ability entry?
J: Spellcasting is uninterruptible.
D. If you can cast Summon Monster I in an antimagic field.
J: Your spellcasting isn't blocked in antimagic it is Ex!
Me: Your spellcasting resolves and Summon Monster I's effect takes place.
J: Your spellcasting isn't blocked in antimagic it is Ex!
Me: Summon Monster I's effect resolves (unblocked by antimagic) and a creature is summoned.
J: Your spellcasting isn't blocked in antimagic it is Ex!
Me: The creature is there but suppressed.
J: Your spellcasting isn't blocked in antimagic it is Ex!
Me: Technically speaking, antimagic isn't a valid reason to say spellcasting is Ex, it can just as easily be Su or Sp or Spells, since they all resolved just fine.
J: Your spellcasting isn't blocked in antimagic it is Ex!
E. Specific replaces general is
against the rules and structure of D&D.
J: Arcane Talent is Ex, a case of Ex spellcasting exists, screw general. It is Ex.
Me: Lern2Read, we've been over this again and again ever since BG opened.
3. We had are bumps along the way haven't we?
Me quoting the wrong page or misquoting, which I admit and correct as they come.
J not quoting anything and not admitting to such.
Me wanting to use updated rules.
J thinking new rules would undo him and so they must be ignored.
Me with rules quotes and rebuttals.
J with name calling, "Oh god, it's you Aelrynth? No wonder." instead of a real point.
Me with more rules quotes and rephased rebuttals.
J with "I'm sure SorO thinks the Reth Dekala doesn't have Special Abilities and that its Martial Maneuvers are untyped, because it doesn't say it right there." instead of a real point.
But hey, I agree, I really should acquire nonimage only PDFs to quote from to fix my reading problem.
4. I'd hope so. Hell when I thought this was over and resolved I let it slip out about Spells being ambiguous. Thing is, there is no "spellcasting" != "spells you cast". It's Spells in classes, it's Spells in the MM's glossary, it's Spells in the MM's SA list, it's Spells in the MMV, it's Spells or Special Abilities that get referenced apart. this entire topic is based on Spells being split into spellcasting & spells you cast despite our rules quotes naming them the one and the same. JaronK is ultimately trying to say the magical effects of spells are extraordinary abilities. I've let that continue for 17 pages and found it hilarious that even with my hint no one else seen it. Is it trollish to accept one's fallacy and prove him wrong within it? I think not.
***
I really feel the need to highlight this.
Lost your wrong! Arcane/Divine Talent are the new way to express monster spellcasting, if we replicate the effect as the MMV/FF1 has set up all previous monsters have those traits thus all monster granted spellcasting is Ex!
That would be a very excellent point and one I would not truly argue against if you could show case an example of Arcane/Divine Talent being used like that. Let's prove it!
MMIV-152: Redspawn Arcaniss. Doesn't have class levels & has spellcasting. No SQ/SA entry at all, special ability area doesn't note anything useful.
Dragons of Eberron-60: Rakshasa half-green dragon rogue 10, Same thing again. You can also scroll down for a half-fiend old gold dragon.
Elder Evils-130: The Worm That Walks(ce huge aberration), ooh it has sorcerer spells... Oh nm not in SA/SQ/or notation of spellcasting in the last block.
Well I give up already, Heck, given DoE provides updated state blocks of monsters whom previously had a Spells entry and now that such entry is removed. The same italic text above can be reprinted to say no such monster has a Spells entry anymore, which I already commented was a deprecated term but not I have examples proving it.
And his counter claim
And if anyone else is confused, the Chameleon's Bonus Feat is an Ex ability. That Ex ability can give you an Su ability (a feat that's Su). Just like Wild Shape is an Su ability that can give Na abilities (claw attacks). This is very different from something that just gives you the ability to cast spells as an Ex ability... that would be an Ex ability to cast spells, which lets you create a magical effect (the spell itself) just like any other spell casting ability. This is of course irrelevant to the fact that the newer stat blocks don't explicitly say whether every ability in them is a Special Attack or Special Quality as the old stat blocks did. We know that racial skill boosts are Ex (because the FAQ on the human skill boost says so) yet the Reth Dekala in ToB (new stat block) doesn't list a type for them... and it doesn't list whether any of its special abilities are special abilities at all (it just lists each ability with a type). It also doesn't list a type for "Martial Maneuvers" just like other entries don't list a type for spells... even though Martial Maneuvers are defined as Ex in that very book. I'm sure SorO thinks the Reth Dekala doesn't have Special Abilities and that its Martial Maneuvers are untyped, because it doesn't say it right there.
A quick pass to say Arcane Talent does replace general rules followed by him agreeing new rules doesn't say Spells is a Special Ability anyway and what?
Rakshasa: Has spellcasting, spellcasting isn't a special ability.
Reth Dekala: Has maneuvers...
Well since I know what I'm talking about I know maneuvers are considered Ex or Su so I think I know what he means. The problem is, Maneuvers - the ones you can learn - and even; Maneuver Known, Maneuvers Ready, and Stances Known, are unmarked Class Features, just like Spells. The difference between them is Spells - the magical effect, example fireball - is magical. And Maneuvers - the martial effect, example searing blade - is Ex or Su. So JaronK's point is Maneuvers - which one? - is untyped but listed in the Special Abilities area. It's not even a counter or rebuttal. It's him at the end of his rope asking how I'd classify that so he can hope I'd give him something to whine about.