Fuck You to casters.

[JaronK]

My bad -- I stand corrected.
sort of ....
p.179, PHB -- spontaneous casters do need to spend time each day concentrating to "ready their mind" ; but it's only 15 minutes, instead of an hour.

Ah, but even that is only to regain spell slots used previously.  If you've never used any, you don't need to.  As it says:

A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating.  (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.)  During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells.  Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before.

So if you didn't even had casting the day before, the 15 minutes isn't needed.  I'm not even sure whether you need the 8 hours of rest, since that's also a requirement for refreshing spells, not for being able to cast them in the first place.  But even if it is, just make sure to get a good night's sleep.  I mean, if you're casting Polymorph you needed it anyway.

JaronK

[wotmaniac]

but those hypothetical slots were never filled to begin with -- which does indeed mean that you do need to take those 15 minutes.  you only don't need those 15 minutes if you already had those slots filled -- which you didn't, because you just turned in to that creature.

and that's assuming that you would even get those slots (which I'm no longer interested in debating)

[JaronK]

Still, it's all about "regain" and "refresh" not "gain" or "fill."  That indicates you have them unless you've used them and need to replenish them.  When you start the game, you don't have to rest or ready your mind to have "those slots filled."  You just have them.  Then you use them, and have to do the little 15 minute thing.

JaronK

[wotmaniac]

Really?
Wow -- that was quite a stretch.
Okay, I would think the game assumes that "when you start the game" that you would have already done your daily preparation/refresh.  Nowhere does anything state anything to the effect that you are ever exempt from the 15-minute prep time.  Ever.
You can go ahead and stop that particular line of mental gymnastics right there.

[The_Laughing_Man]

If sorcerer's inborn magical ability is the class feature: spells then can it be extraordinary? Extraordinary special abilities are non-magical..

[wotmaniac]

If sorcerer's inborn magical ability is the class feature: spells then can it be extraordinary? Extraordinary special abilities are non-magical..

it's called fluff text. 

[The_Laughing_Man]

Are PHB p.21 and p.312 fluff? I don't think they are..

[JaronK]

If sorcerer's inborn magical ability is the class feature: spells then can it be extraordinary? Extraordinary special abilities are non-magical..

The same way that Arcane Talent is Ex, one assumes.  That too is an inborn magical ability... that's explicitly Ex.  Mock Divinity is also an inborn magical ability... which is also Ex.  Plus, his inborn magical ability still works in an AMF (it's suppressed, but unlike a Factotum who has Sp casting a Sorcerer can cast long duration spells in an AMF and when he walks out the spells are up).  So, while the fluff about Sorcerers says it's a magical ability, the RAW behavior of their ability says it's a non magical ability to make magic.

Consider the fact that the fluff about Fighters says they make awesome veteran soldiers, guards, and warlords... yet RAW is that they're on of only two classes that doesn't get Knowledge (History) which is knowledge of war and military tactics, they lack Spot and Listen, and they have some of the worst leadership abilities of any class.  Kinda the same deal here.

@Wotc:  I'm just going by what it says.  The 15 minute prep time thing is to restore used spell slots.  That's all it says.  And it says the consequence of not doing it is that you don't restore used spell slots.  If none of your spell slots are used, then skipping it doesn't hurt you any.

JaronK

[Kajhera]

Yea, I'd give sorcerer casting if anything. You don't have to prepare your spells as a sorcerer. On the other hand there's nothing suggesting you can choose your spells.

Of course I am still going to point out that anytime actual spellcasting gets typed, it's as an extraordinary special quality. While spells are never typed themselves and also generally special attacks that very much don't function in an antimagic field.

[wotmaniac]

@Wotc:  I'm just going by what it says. 

I'm out.  I refuse to go down that road with you.

Are PHB p.21 and p.312 fluff? I don't think they are..

it's a fluff description.  "inborn" as opposed to "learned" like a wizard.  explains CHA-based vs. INT-based casting.
Much like the word "innate" was used to describe a warlock's abilities ... which was then later clarified as being purely fluff text, and not meant to have any mechanical implications.
please don't go digging another rabbit-whole-to-hell -- this thread already has one.

[The_Laughing_Man]

I agree that shoveling is a hard work

Still it does not sound right to me that sorcerer definition (PHB p.312) under the chapter Glossary is considered as fluff..

[wotmaniac]

I agree that shoveling is a hard work

Still it does not sound right to me that sorcerer definition (PHB p.312) under the chapter Glossary is considered as fluff..

yes, I read it.  yes, I understand where you're coming from.  yes, the word "inborn" can potentially have certain mechanical implications; but I seriously doubt the writers had any such intent.  as a matter of fact, I doubt it so much that I won't even consider it as a possibility.

/twocents

[Kajhera]

[The_Laughing_Man]

yes, I read it.  yes, I understand where you're coming from.  yes, the word "inborn" can potentially have certain mechanical implications; but I seriously doubt the writers had any such intent.  as a matter of fact, I doubt it so much that I won't even consider it as a possibility.

ok wotmaniac, I understand it as you do.

Actually I'm more interested in the magical part not the inborn. That has implications for class feature: spells being extraordinary.

[wotmaniac]

yes, I read it.  yes, I understand where you're coming from.  yes, the word "inborn" can potentially have certain mechanical implications; but I seriously doubt the writers had any such intent.  as a matter of fact, I doubt it so much that I won't even consider it as a possibility.

ok wotmaniac, I understand it as you do.

for real? or for sarcasm?
damn the internet for not being able to discern nuance. 

Actually I'm more interested in the magical part not the inborn. That has implications for class feature: spells being extraordinary.

okay, I see what you're getting at.
hmm ... I'm still going with it being just a fluff description that has no real consequence.

[The_Laughing_Man]

For reals what I meant Inborn is strange word to be used in this context.

If the glossary definition for sorcerer is fluff then does that cast doubt on the whole glossary as well? I.e. the whole glossary is just fluff? Not that I think so.

The glossary text kinda looks funny if we strike out the contested part..

sorcerer (Sor): A class made up of characters who have inborn magical ability.
OR
sorcerer (Sor): A class made up of characters who have inborn magical ability.

Anyway if class feature: spells for sorcerers is magical then it can't be extraordinary, where I was aiming for.

[wotmaniac]

here's the deal with the glossary ... for most things, it really is pretty definitive.  however, on the other hand, look at each and every entry for each of the classes -- it's all fluff.  every single one of them.  there is not a single class entry in the glossary that can be said to have anything related to relevant mechanics.  I think that they were included for completeness.

"spells" are "effects" ; "spellcasting" is an ability.  analog = a cake is an effect, baking is an ability.  you don't just create cakes out of thin air ... you use your baking ability (knowledge + technique) to put ingredients together in such a way that when properly agitated, you end up with a cake.
that part really is a semantics issue.
any time you see "ability: spells", you can rest assured that it's just shorthand (i.e., laziness and apathy)

I dunno why we're on this tangent exactly, but I think it's damaged my brain somewhat.

somewhat?  I don't even know what reality is anymore -- I'm starting to question my own existence.

[The_Laughing_Man]

I think the sorcerer definition in the glossary does contain mechanics. I.e. it is a class and characters belong to it. Both class and character are defined in the glossary. For example only a creature as opposed to an object can be a character.

Drawing the line where the mechanics end and fluff begins is nigh impossible in the glossary, I think. Yet another rabbit-hole.. Also this opens up the MM glossary as well, which part is fluff and which part is mechanics. Dare we venture forward? Please say no

[SorO_Lost]

I don't think calling someone an idiot just because you're 100% wrong is conducive to winning an argument.

Who said I lost? the book still say spellcasting is a separate entity from special abilities. The books still say spellcasting isn't a SA. The over drama of separation of X and Y only empowers the separation of giving X and Y giving X.

JaronK refused to admit new sources, refused to admit classification of the untyped ability is a house rule, claimed the MM's glossary entry for spellcasting trumped the PHB's chapter on spellcasting. It took someone else to make a real point. And what is the point? Spellcasting is Ex? MMV's own glossary still states spells are untyped so no. Not true at all.

Consider the Chameleon's Bonus Feat class feature for a moment. The trait it's marked Ex, assuming you were a druid before hand you could use this Ex ability to acquire Cheetah's Speed. Cheetah's Speed, as a Wild feat, is a supernatural ability and not extraordinary like all other feats and no extraordinary like the Chameleon's Bonus Feat class feature.

So what is it?
1. Cheetah's Speed, by merit of being granted via something and instantly reneges on it's type and becomes Ex.
2. Cheetah's Speed remains (Su) as all Wild feats are noted as being regardless of what grants it.

If you choose 2 then stop posting you agree with me. If you chose 1 then hey you should run with that in the TO section entitled "The feat Assume Supernatural Ability is Ex and therefor the granted Su trait is Ex too, listen to me break this ^_^"

Lost your wrong! Arcane/Divine Talent are the new way to express monster spellcasting, if we replicate the effect as the MMV/FF1 has set up all previous monsters have those traits thus all monster granted spellcasting is Ex!
That would be a very excellent point and one I would not truly argue against if you could show case an example of Arcane/Divine Talent being used like that. Let's prove it!
MMIV-152: Redspawn Arcaniss. Doesn't have class levels & has spellcasting. No SQ/SA entry at all, special ability area doesn't note anything useful.
Dragons of Eberron-60: Rakshasa half-green dragon rogue 10, Same thing again. You can also scroll down for a half-fiend old gold dragon.
Elder Evils-130: The Worm That Walks(ce huge aberration), ooh it has sorcerer spells... Oh nm not in SA/SQ/or notation of spellcasting in the last block.
Well I give up already, Heck, given DoE provides updated state blocks of monsters whom previously had a Spells entry and now taht such entry is removed. The same italic text above can be reprinted to say no such monster has a Spells entry anymore, which I already commented was a deprecated term but not I have examples proving it.

In the end. Spellcasting remains untyped (which means typing it is a house rule) and is still treated separately from special abilities in everything but one word found in an example which newer rules remove that claim. Arcane/Divine Talent are still specific abilities that do not replace the general rules and no claims can be made to say it is the new method of handling monster granted spell entries. We are very much still back at the original debate except I'm sick of listening to JaronK's MM's SA entry > 96 books and now I have Dragons of Eberron to wave around for the next thread. It's a form of progress.

[Kajhera]

Both of you have admitted new sources, changed your arguments, generally had a modicum of sense, (and both convinced me of a portion of your argument).

Stop claiming otherwise.