Fuck You to casters.

[AleksanderTheGreat]

Likewise the previously mentioned page 95's Kuo Toa sports cleric casting without cleric levels. No Ex mention that bestows that and no mention of Spells under either creature's Special Attack entry which reading the entries states all special attacks are to be re-noted there.

Um... what? There is "Divine Talent (Ex)" at the very end of the stat block.

[SorO_Lost]

Damn I am blind. Bottom notations like that are supposed to be listed in the top block.

Edit: Wait. Special Abilities descriptions of previously noted abilities appear there and it does appear under SQ rather than the MM's SA call. Been focused on SA the last few days dealing with J. Rechecking and still not seeing Jaebrin's block listign spells in either SA or SQ.

Edit 2: Same with Hobgoblin's entry on page 84. Class granted spellcasting isn't typed (per the original source I'm sure). However, it would seem when a monster is granted spellcasting as X class it gets typed and as it's own ability. No such thing as Spells anymore at all. See what happens when someone does do some research instead of yelling about how they are right? Stuff gets found.

[AleksanderTheGreat]

Jaebrins spells are a class feature. Beguilers class feature. because it has a level in Beguiler.

[SorO_Lost]

Jaebrins spells are a class feature. Beguilers class feature. because it has a level in Beguiler.

Yeah edit #2 has that, was poking around I knew there was a nearby class granted spellcasting ability.

Same with Hobgoblin's entry on page 84. Class granted spellcasting isn't typed (per the original source I'm sure). However, it would seem when a monster is granted spellcasting as X class it gets typed and as it's own ability. No such thing as Spells anymore at all. See what happens when someone does do some research instead of yelling about how they are right? Stuff gets found.

The term Spells seems to be deprecated as far as monster entries go (glossary contains a copypasta untyped spells entry). Instead when a creature is given the ability to cast as a character of X level in Y class, the ability granting that trait is typed. Said ability is listed as a Special Quality. SQs are special abilities which would have been a tremendous boon for JaronK to make a point out of. But like the idiot he is he refuses newer sources and was hell bent on one line of text.

[Lycanthromancer]

Jaebrins spells are a class feature. Beguilers class feature. because it has a level in Beguiler.

Yeah edit #2 has that, was poking around I knew there was a nearby class granted spellcasting ability.

Same with Hobgoblin's entry on page 84. Class granted spellcasting isn't typed (per the original source I'm sure). However, it would seem when a monster is granted spellcasting as X class it gets typed and as it's own ability. No such thing as Spells anymore at all. See what happens when someone does do some research instead of yelling about how they are right? Stuff gets found.

The term Spells seems to be deprecated as far as monster entries go (glossary contains a copypasta untyped spells entry). Instead when a creature is given the ability to cast as a character of X level in Y class, the ability granting that trait is typed. Said ability is listed as a Special Quality. SQs are special abilities which would have been a tremendous boon for JaronK to make a point out of. But like the idiot he is he refuses newer sources and was hell bent on one line of text.

I don't think calling someone an idiot just because you're 100% wrong is conducive to winning an argument.

[AleksanderTheGreat]

See what happens when someone does do some research instead of yelling about how they are right? Stuff gets found.

You're talking about yourself, right? Because from what I have seen, YOU where the one who "yelled" the loudest and YOU weren't civil in this discusion. So... please keep your tone down.

But like the idiot he is he refuses newer sources and was hell bent on one line of text.

FYI, I still don't see how JaronK is wrong. I might be dumb (and not knowing english perfectly isn't helping), but I'm all on his side.

[JaronK]

Said ability is listed as a Special Quality. SQs are special abilities which would have been a tremendous boon for JaronK to make a point out of. But like the idiot he is he refuses newer sources and was hell bent on one line of text.

MMV and FC1 both list abilities that are basically casting (Arcane Talent and that divine ability that the critter that starts with L has).  Both are listed as Ex Special Abilities... but as Special Qualities.  Now, the Monster Manual is the primary source on Special Abilities, so if that's a contradiction (the MM says Spells are a Special Attack) then the MM just trumps... but I realized there's another possibility.

You even responded to that post from yesterday.  See where I was talking about the Hobgoblin's ability, namely Arcane Talent?

So, I assume due to the fact that you were unable to find any quotes to back up your earlier claims that you are now conceding that no rule ever claims newer trumps older, and also conceding that no book after DMGII claims that the ability to cast spells is untyped?

Thanks.  

JaronK

[AleksanderTheGreat]

I think that it just an update. In earlier statblocks it was in "Special Attacks" section, but now they changed it to make it clearer. Now RAW Polymorph grants the ability to cast spells, but NOT THE SPELLS THEMSELFS. That's how I see it.

[Kajhera]

I think that it just an update. In earlier statblocks it was in "Special Attacks" section, but now they changed it to make it clearer. Now RAW Polymorph grants the ability to cast spells, but NOT THE SPELLS THEMSELFS. That's how I see it.

I thought it granted the spells themselves but not the ability to cast them.

[AleksanderTheGreat]

I think that it just an update. In earlier statblocks it was in "Special Attacks" section, but now they changed it to make it clearer. Now RAW Polymorph grants the ability to cast spells, but NOT THE SPELLS THEMSELFS. That's how I see it.

I thought it granted the spells themselves but not the ability to cast them.

You thought wrong. (or I'm misunderstanding something)

[Bauglir]

I think that it just an update. In earlier statblocks it was in "Special Attacks" section, but now they changed it to make it clearer. Now RAW Polymorph grants the ability to cast spells, but NOT THE SPELLS THEMSELFS. That's how I see it.

I thought it granted the spells themselves but not the ability to cast them.

I think WotC's monster-writing staff never thought through the implications of polymorph spells and thus didn't always worry about typing abilities they didn't think would need it.

[AleksanderTheGreat]

Imagine it like that:
You get the mashinegun, but you got no ammo.
You get the ability to cast the spells, but you have no spells to begin with.
And here comes a question: What if a Sorc would polymorph into something that has Sorc spellcasting?

[JaronK]

I think that it just an update. In earlier statblocks it was in "Special Attacks" section, but now they changed it to make it clearer. Now RAW Polymorph grants the ability to cast spells, but NOT THE SPELLS THEMSELFS. That's how I see it.

Spells do fit the definition of special attacks (any special ability that can be used to hinder or harm anything) better than Special Qualities (special abilities that are not offensive in nature).  See the FAQ.

And since the Monster Manual says they're Special Attacks, that would trump any later book that said they were Special Qualities unless they're allowed to count as both (which evidently by the FAQ they are).  It's possible that you can only get spells that are capable (in any way) of harming or hindering something.

Really, the Rules Compendium SHOULD have outright stated what they are one way or the other, but failed to do so.  That's the only book that could have actually trumped the Monster Manual.

But note that the "Spells" ability includes knowledge of the spells, so you do have them.  However, if the ability includes a requirement to memorize your spells for the day (for example, when you get Wizard casting from an Ethergaunt) you'd still have to do that before casting them, just as a Wizard might.  In that case, only Shapechange lasts long enough for your Spells ability to be of use.  But if you got Sorcerer casting, you should be good to go.

JaronK

[wotmaniac]

no, because you specifically have to spend an hour preparing your self for casting spells, regardless of whether your spells are prepared or spontaneous.
not to mention how far you want take the whole 8 hours of rest per day if you want to cast at all .....

[Kajhera]

I think that it just an update. In earlier statblocks it was in "Special Attacks" section, but now they changed it to make it clearer. Now RAW Polymorph grants the ability to cast spells, but NOT THE SPELLS THEMSELFS. That's how I see it.

I thought it granted the spells themselves but not the ability to cast them.

You thought wrong. (or I'm misunderstanding something)

Ah just the 'Arcane Talent' being under special qualities and 'Spells' being under special attacks gave me that impression.

On the same monster, yes.

[JaronK]

no, because you specifically have to spend an hour preparing your self for casting spells, regardless of whether your spells are prepared or spontaneous.

Nope.  Look at the Wizard... it says that in his "Spells" entry.  Now look at the Sorcerer.  Doesn't say that anywhere.  The hour study thing is a special rule found in the "Spells" entry of prepared casters only.

You do need 8 hours of rest to refresh your spells, but you don't need to refresh them at all if they were never used in the first place (which they weren't, you didn't have them before).

JaronK

[AleksanderTheGreat]

You do need 8 hours of rest to refresh your spells, but you don't need to refresh them at all if they were never used in the first place (which they weren't, you didn't have them before).

And therefore you don't have them now. You get the glass but you have to fill it first if you want to drink.

[Bauglir]

You do need 8 hours of rest to refresh your spells, but you don't need to refresh them at all if they were never used in the first place (which they weren't, you didn't have them before).

And therefore you don't have them now. You get the glass but you have to fill it first if you want to drink.

That analogy is as relevant as fruit.

[veekie]

You do need 8 hours of rest to refresh your spells, but you don't need to refresh them at all if they were never used in the first place (which they weren't, you didn't have them before).

And therefore you don't have them now. You get the glass but you have to fill it first if you want to drink.

That analogy is as relevant as fruit.

You gotta harvest the fruit before you eat it.

[wotmaniac]

no, because you specifically have to spend an hour preparing your self for casting spells, regardless of whether your spells are prepared or spontaneous.

Nope.  Look at the Wizard... it says that in his "Spells" entry.  Now look at the Sorcerer.  Doesn't say that anywhere.  The hour study thing is a special rule found in the "Spells" entry of prepared casters only.

You do need 8 hours of rest to refresh your spells, but you don't need to refresh them at all if they were never used in the first place (which they weren't, you didn't have them before).

JaronK

My bad -- I stand corrected.
sort of ....
p.179, PHB -- spontaneous casters do need to spend time each day concentrating to "ready their mind" ; but it's only 15 minutes, instead of an hour.