Author Topic: Fuck You to casters.  (Read 60861 times)

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #120 on: February 28, 2011, 09:49:41 PM »
And why is this an issue, anyway?

Summoning something to cast spells for you is better anyway, if only due to action economy.

And is totally and indisputably RAW to boot.
Well, that obviously depends which spells you're talking about, and depends if you're using a Calling spell or a Summoning spell, but in general, true.
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Bester

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #121 on: February 28, 2011, 09:52:12 PM »
Once again, bookkeeping is king.  Beware the man with 24 character sheets and 120 stat blocks.

snakeman830

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #122 on: February 28, 2011, 09:54:24 PM »
Well, on Sneak Attack, the PHB and DMG seem to be the only places where it's not established as Ex.  Everywhere else has it marked as (Ex).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #123 on: February 28, 2011, 10:09:33 PM »
True. Like I said, I don't think that's a definitive way to make the judgement call. It was just something I noticed with a quick perusal while running a session.

So, how did we get on this topic, anyway?
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #124 on: February 28, 2011, 10:15:58 PM »
True. Like I said, I don't think that's a definitive way to make the judgement call. It was just something I noticed with a quick perusal while running a session.

So, how did we get on this topic, anyway?
Someone actually did fuck a caster and caught some sort of disease.
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Bester

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #125 on: February 28, 2011, 10:26:10 PM »
True. Like I said, I don't think that's a definitive way to make the judgement call. It was just something I noticed with a quick perusal while running a session.

So, how did we get on this topic, anyway?
Someone actually did fuck a caster and caught some sort of disease.

So spell casting is a disease then?

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #126 on: February 28, 2011, 10:31:10 PM »
True. Like I said, I don't think that's a definitive way to make the judgement call. It was just something I noticed with a quick perusal while running a session.

So, how did we get on this topic, anyway?
Someone actually did fuck a caster and caught some sort of disease.

So spell casting is a disease then?
Yes. Because sex is the means to ultimate power.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #127 on: February 28, 2011, 10:34:50 PM »
True. Like I said, I don't think that's a definitive way to make the judgement call. It was just something I noticed with a quick perusal while running a session.

So, how did we get on this topic, anyway?
Someone actually did fuck a caster and caught some sort of disease.

So spell casting is a disease then?
Yes. Because sex is the means to ultimate power.
This explains so much about my relationship with my girlfriend.
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Littha

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #128 on: February 28, 2011, 10:36:37 PM »
BTW. Am I on your "Ignore" list because I don't like Sunic and he's your God, or Am I THAT annoying? :( I can confess that I'm trolling, but only him. And I've seen worse trolls in here.

You are at the same point on my list of openly confrontational people with nothing useful to add as Whisper. Sunic does occasionally offer meaningful insight despite being impossible to debate with.

JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #129 on: March 01, 2011, 12:50:08 AM »
But, I have one last statement. To my knowledge, Natural abilities are dependent on your race. Isn't it Extraordinary if it is something you've learned?

Close.  Na abilities are dependent on your physical form, but require no training at all.  Note that lots of racial abilities are still Ex, even though they're "dependent on your race."  For example, all bonus feats.  Your ability to make claw attacks for no other reason than that you have claws is Na, but your Improved Grab ability (which is your actual skill with what you've got) is Ex... even if you got Improved Grab because of race.  But your ending point... that everything that's learned is extraordinary (if it's not magical)... that's true.

All About Polymorph goes over this in pretty extreme detail, including going over the fact that Na abilities are gained even by Alter Self simply because being that shape gives you the ability, even if you'd never trained at being in that shape.

As to how we know "Spells" is an ability... well, first off it's listed under Special Attacks.  Special Attacks are a subset of Special Abilities... that same Rules of the Game article (seriously, everyone should read it if they want to talk about this) even says "Special Attack: A unique or unusual ability a creature can use to harm or hinder other creatures."  Second, every single thing a character can do is an ability.  Your flight speed?  That's an ability (Na if you have wings, usually listed as Su otherwise).  Your ability to breath air?  Na ability.  Your ability to get really angry?  Ex ability if you're a Barbarian.  All of these things are explicitly stated.  If the ability is a really basic thing, it's Na.  Otherwise, it's a special ability, in which case it's Ex, Sp, or Su.

I'm just going to post this and hope people read it, because it's important, all taken from that same Rules of the Game article which was on the very topic of "stuff you get with polymorph."

Quote
Special Attack: A unique or unusual ability a creature can use to harm or hinder other creatures.

Special Quality: A unique or unusual ability a creature has that is not offensive in nature.

Extraordinary Ability: Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without natural talent or extensive training. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

Extraordinary abilities often depend on particular physical adaptations that a creature has. Changing form often strips the recipient of some extraordinary abilities, but grants some extraordinary abilities that the assumed form has. In general, when you assume a new form, you lose any extraordinary special attacks and special qualities you have unless you get them from a character class. You usually gain any extraordinary special attacks your assumed form has, but not the assumed form's extraordinary special qualities. That's because most extraordinary special attacks are based off gross physical features (such a big, nasty claws and teeth) while extraordinary special qualities tend to be subtler and largely derived from a creature's essential nature.

Spell-Like Ability: Spell-like abilities are magical. (They're also the subject of an earlier installment in this series.) A creature usually retains its spell-like abilities when it assumes another form because spell-like abilities are primarily mental in nature. You don't gain an assumed form's spell-like abilities when polymorphing or even when using the very powerful shape change spell.

Supernatural Ability: Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Some supernatural abilities depend on specific parts of the user's body, but most are derived from a creature's essential self. When polymorphing, you retain most of your own supernatural abilities, but you don't gain the assumed form's supernatural abilities unless you're using the shape change spell.

When a supernatural ability depends on part of your body that your assumed form does not have, such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack, you lose that supernatural ability when in the assumed form.

Natural Ability: This term is a catch-all for just about anything a creature can do (or characteristic that it has) that is not extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. Natural abilities include most speed ratings (some very high speeds are not "natural," see the section on the alter self spell), mode of breathing (lungs, gills), natural armor and weaponry, general appearance, body type, and the presence or absence of the five basic senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, pain). When polymorphing, you generally lose your own natural abilities and gain those of your assumed form.

So, what do we have here?  First off, if it's a Special Attack, it's a special ability.  It's right there in the definition of Special Attack (note: this is the only actual definition of Special Attack I've seen anywhere... usually the game just lists a bunch of them).  Since Spells are always listed as a Special Attack, they're Special Abilities. 

Okay, what's next?  The SRD (this originally comes from the Monster Manual):

Quote
Special Abilities

A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.

Note this is written directly after the bit on Natural Abilities in the SRD... seriously, do a search for "SRD Special Abilities" and have a look.  It's very clear that Natural Abilities are separate from Special Abilities... they're the catch all for abilities that aren't special.  So, we've established that spells are Ex, Sp, or Su.  Now, there's a TON of different places that establish which one they are, but here's the simplest, from the Antimagic Field text (also available via the SRD):

Quote
The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

So, spells can't be Sp or Su (they're separate) but they must be Ex, Sp, or Su.  Well that was simple, wasn't it?

Now, there's other stuff.  Occasionally the ability to cast spells has a listed type... it's Ex.  Sp and Su abilities are defined by how they're not spells.  Spellcasting is still explicitly allowed in an antimagic field (see the Rules of the Game on that topic) even though the spells themselves do nothing, which also indicates that the "Spells" ability isn't magic even if the spells themselves are.  And so on.  This comes up so often I usually forget which things I've said and which I haven't, but it's all there.

As to how we got on the topic... the original topic was "hey, you can remove spellcasting from a spellcaster if you can polymorph him into a specific shape!"  But since that only works on willing (or unconscious) targets, it didn't matter, so that's kinda done with.  But since the poster also claimed spells were Na abilities, I pointed out that they weren't.  And this is more interesting anyway.

JaronK

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #130 on: March 01, 2011, 01:01:13 AM »
I'm pretty sure all that was covered, already. The fact of the matter is that the text is contradictory. It can be argued either way.

Thanks for the recap though. This thread really needed to be bumped.
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JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #131 on: March 01, 2011, 01:09:53 AM »
The primary thing is that people were arguing spells could be not an ability at all.  I think this covers that:

"Special Attack: A unique or unusual ability a creature can use to harm or hinder other creatures."

Also, it was pretty much the top topic when I responded.

JaronK

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #132 on: March 01, 2011, 01:33:56 AM »
I don't think casting spells qualifies as a unique or unusual thing in the D&D world. Of course, this doesn't really matter at all anyway...it could be argued either way.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 01:35:43 AM by BeholderSlayer »
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JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #133 on: March 01, 2011, 01:37:15 AM »
I think Spells counts as a special attack because that's where they're listed, both in Monster entries and in the SRD's section "Special Attacks."  Only way to argue it some other way is to pretend it doesn't say that explicitly.

JaronK
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 01:40:35 AM by JaronK »

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #134 on: March 01, 2011, 01:41:21 AM »
I think Spells counts as a special attack because that's where they're listed, both in Monster entries and in the SRD's section "Special Attacks."  Only way to argue it some other way is to pretend it doesn't say that explicitly.

JaronK
True, but Spells aren't listed explicitly as Extraordinary.
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JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2011, 02:08:41 AM »
True, but Spells aren't listed explicitly as Extraordinary.

God, the shifting goalposts here is kinda silly.  Prove that them being Special Abilities means they're Ex?  "They're not abilities!"  Prove that they're Special Attacks and that Special Attacks are defined as being abilities?  "They're untyped abilities!"  Prove that all abilities must have a type?  "They're Natural!"  Prove that the definition of natural says it's only things which are inherent to the physical form, and that Special abilities are never natural?  "You can't prove they're Ex!"  Prove that them being Special Abilities means they're Ex?  "They're not abilities!"  It could make a person's head spin.

You're right, they're only explicitly listed as Extraordinary in a few places (Arcane Talent, and evidently this Lilith entry that I still haven't found).  Sneak Attack and its cousins are like that too.  But since they're implicitly listed all over the place, and must be one of the four, and can't possibly be the other three, it works pretty well.  I mean, I've laid it all out so many times it's silly.  Things don't have to be explicitly listed as one ability type everywhere to be that ability type.  Each individual feat is never explicitly listed as Ex... but feats in general are, so they are.   Same deal here, only just slightly more complex. But not that much more so.

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #136 on: March 01, 2011, 05:33:34 AM »
Aboleth Mage (MM p.9) has a Special Attack: Spells.

Now look at the PHB definition for extraordinary abilities:
Quote from: 3.5 PHB p.180
spells can, and they generally do
not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or
disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not
subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic
field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical,
though they may break the laws of physics.

So Special Attack: Spells is not an extraordinary ability. Otherwise Aboleth Mage could go and make an extraordinary Special Attack: Spells in an antimagic field. I.e. deal damage with Magic Missile within the field as ex abilities are not affected.

And yes, spells == Spells. That is how I read it.

So what is Spells then?

Quote from: 3.5 PHB p.24
Class Features: Special characteristics of the class. When applicable,
this section also mentions restrictions and disadvantages of
the class. Class features include some or all of the following.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: This section details which weapons
and armor types the character is proficient with. Regardless of
training, cumbersome armor interferes with certain skills (such as
Climb) and with the casting of most arcane spells. Characters can
become proficient with other weapon or armor types by acquiring
the appropriate Armor Proficiency (light, medium, heavy), Shield
Proficiency, and Weapon Proficiency (exotic, martial or simple)
feats. (See Chapter 5: Feats.)
Spells: Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, and bards use spells.
Fighters, barbarians, rogues, and monks do not. Paladins and rangers
gain the ability to use spells at 4th level.

Other Features: Each class has certain unique capabilities. Some,
such as the rogue, have few; others, such as the monk, have many.
Some abilities are supernatural or spell-like. Using a spell-like
ability is essentially like casting a spell (but without components; see
Components, page 174), and it provokes attacks of opportunity.
Using a supernatural ability is not like casting a spell. (See Chapter
8: Combat, especially Attacks of Opportunity, page 137, and Use
Special Ability, page 142.)

Ergo, Spells is a Class Feature. That begs a question whether all Class Features are typed (sp, su, ex or na) and must be of one type. I think that not every Class Feature is typed nor must be of one type.

Antimagic Field describes spells as magical effects. Whatever that is worth.

Quote from: 3.5 PHB p.200
... The space within this
barrier is impervious to most magical
effects, including spells, spell-like abilities,
and supernatural abilities. ...

And finally what is spellcasting? It is a gained ability (note generic ability) from a Class Feature: Spells.

Now this becomes hairy. What is the type of spellcasting, that is a gained generic ability from a Class Feature whose type is not explicitly defined? I think we are off to the wonderful land of personal interpretation at this point.

Also note that extraordinary abilities cannot be disrupted in combat. Casting a spell can be disrupted in combat so spellcasting cannot be an extraordinary ability.

And whoah this is way off topic as well.. :)

JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #137 on: March 01, 2011, 05:46:11 AM »
So Special Attack: Spells is not an extraordinary ability. Otherwise Aboleth Mage could go and make an extraordinary Special Attack: Spells in an antimagic field. I.e. deal damage with Magic Missile within the field as ex abilities are not affected.

Actually, you can explicitly cast spells just fine in an Antimagic Field.  However, the spells you do cast are suppressed.   The Rules of the Game article covers this very thing.  If they were Sp or Su, you couldn't do it at all.  After all, if the Aboleth casts Magic Missile, the casting works... he loses his spell slot because the spell is cast.  But the spell itself fails to do anything.  An individual spell isn't an ability, but the ability to cast them is... just like a distance of 90 feet traveled by a Solar isn't an ability, but the ability to fly is an ability.

Quote
Ergo, Spells is a Class Feature. That begs a question whether all Class Features are typed (sp, su, ex or na) and must be of one type. I think that not every Class Feature is typed nor must be of one type.

Sometimes it's a class feature, sometimes a racial special attack.  But you know what it always is?  A Special Ability.  Check out the SRD here:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spells

See Spells, down the page in the Special Abilities section.  So, regardless of whether class features are always an ability and thus must have a type (they do, but that's not relevant right now), Spells are always a Special Ability, which must always be Ex, Sp, or Su.

Quote
Antimagic Field describes spells as magical effects. Whatever that is worth.

Strangely, it calls them magical effects... and leaves them as different from magical effects.  Check this out: 

Quote from: 3.5 PHB p.200
... The space within this
barrier is impervious to most magical
effects, including spells, spell-like abilities,
and supernatural abilities. ...

which is what you quoted, but also:

Quote
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect...

So, it lists them as both a magical effect and separate from magical effects.  Weird.

Quote
And finally what is spellcasting? It is a gained ability (note generic ability) from a Class Feature: Spells.

It's a Special Ability (SRD says so) which can as you say be a Class Feature... but it can also be racial.  Heck, you can even get it from items (that one artifact).  Note that no ability ever lacks a type (PHB 180, Monster Manual, SRD, Rules of the Game, and Rules Compendium all state this).

Quote
Also note that extraordinary abilities cannot be disrupted in combat. Casting a spell can be disrupted in combat so spellcasting cannot be an extraordinary ability.

Unless it's the spell that's being disrupted, but not the casting?  You do use up the spell slot, so you did cast the spell... it just screwed up.  But yeah, this is the only weird part of the whole thing, the one piece that doesn't fit right.

JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #138 on: March 01, 2011, 06:18:38 AM »
Ok so lets do a proper recap, I'm pretty sure of JaronKs argument, but the other argument I'm sort of confused about, could somebody recap it?:

Argument #A1 & #A2
Spellcasting is a Special Ability (SRD says so) which can as you say be a Class Feature... but it can also be racial.  Heck, you can even get it from items (that one artifact).  Note that no ability ever lacks a type (PHB 180, Monster Manual, SRD, Rules of the Game, and Rules Compendium all state this).
If you want to dispute the above. That every ability has a type, and that spellcasting is an ability. Please write so.

Argument #A3
So Special Attack: Spells is not an extraordinary ability. Otherwise Aboleth Mage could go and make an extraordinary Special Attack: Spells in an antimagic field. I.e. deal damage with Magic Missile within the field as ex abilities are not affected.

Actually, you can explicitly cast spells just fine in an Antimagic Field.  However, the spells you do cast are suppressed.   The Rules of the Game article covers this very thing.  If they were Sp or Su, you couldn't do it at all.  After all, if the Aboleth casts Magic Missile, the casting works... he loses his spell slot because the spell is cast.  But the spell itself fails to do anything.  An individual spell isn't an ability, but the ability to cast them is... just like a distance of 90 feet traveled by a Solar isn't an ability, but the ability to fly is an ability.
If you want to dispute that you still have the ability to cast spells within an anti-magic field, but the spells themselves are negated. Please say so.

By the way, Would you post a source of the "rules of the game" article you are referring to Jaron? That would help.

So seeing as the arguments against this are pretty varied here is the one I found to have the most susbtance:
Argument #B1
I would say that "Spells" is simply a class feature. Class features are not necessarily abilities, as far as I know. I might be wrong, but I don't think there is a rules quote anywhere that says that all class features are abilities.

Which is a decent point to present. Which seem to be countered by this point:
Argument #A4
So, what do we have here?  First off, if it's a Special Attack, it's a special ability.  It's right there in the definition of Special Attack (note: this is the only actual definition of Special Attack I've seen anywhere... usually the game just lists a bunch of them).  Since Spells are always listed as a Special Attack, they're Special Abilities.


So, in light of this evidence, if there is nothing to dispute the above claims. It seems spells are Ex abilities.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

The_Laughing_Man

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #139 on: March 01, 2011, 07:30:01 AM »
...
So, in light of this evidence, if there is nothing to dispute the above claims. It seems spells are Ex abilities.

Are you now referring to Special Attack: Spells? Or Class Feature: Spells? Or just spells in general?

I think this part is still undisputed:

Aboleth Mage (MM p.9) has a Special Attack: Spells.

Now look at the PHB definition for extraordinary abilities:
Quote from: 3.5 PHB p.180
spells can, and they generally do
not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or
disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not
subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic
field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical,
though they may break the laws of physics.

So Special Attack: Spells is not an extraordinary ability. ...

And yes, spells == Spells. That is how I read it.

Unfortunately it is the casting that is being disrupted not the spell.

...
Quote
Also note that extraordinary abilities cannot be disrupted in combat. Casting a spell can be disrupted in combat so spellcasting cannot be an extraordinary ability.

Unless it's the spell that's being disrupted, but not the casting?  You do use up the spell slot, so you did cast the spell... it just screwed up.  But yeah, this is the only weird part of the whole thing, the one piece that doesn't fit right.
...

You'll have to make a concentration check in combat to avoid aoo. So it is quite explicit that it is the action of casting the spell that can be disrupted and not the spell itself.

Quote from:  3.5 PHB p.69
CONCENTRATION (CON)
You are particularly good at focusing your mind.
Check: You must make a Concentration check whenever you
might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather,
and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full
attention. Such actions include casting a spell