Author Topic: Fuck You to casters.  (Read 60977 times)

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #100 on: February 28, 2011, 08:35:42 PM »
Seriously?  People are claiming the ability to cast spells isn't an ability?  It's listed under "Special Attacks" in monster entries.  Special attacks are a subset of special abilities.  Plus, you know, it's an ability pretty much by definition, since everything a character can do (even breathing air) counts as an ability (though breathing air is, of course, Na, as it's not a special ability).  I can't believe people are now trying to argue that "Spells" isn't a special ability.  Open up the Monster Manual, find the first monster with the ability to cast spells, look where it's written.  Now look at the next monster.  Now the next one.  Now the next one.  Now do the same for MMII.  And III.  And just in case anyone's not clear, the phrase "extraordinary special attacks" comes up in numerous places (such as Rules of the Game: All About Polymorph, which has the most designer discussion on the topic of ability types).

Plus, we've got people claiming that only Na abilities are unlabeled and spells must be Na... go look at the PHB.  Check the Fighter.  See "Bonus Feats?"  It's an ability.  It's not labeled.  But feats are always Ex.  Now look at all the other classes, and note how class abilities that aren't magical are almost always unlabeled... but since they're Special Abilities, they can't be natural (also, check out the multiple definitions of Natural which all state without exception that they're stuff inherent to the form of the creature... NOT things you learn).  So, that leaves Ex.

If you look through the books, you will in fact find that virtually every ability that's not labeled, but is in fact listed as a special ability or special attack, is in fact Ex.  Improved Grab?  Ex.  Sneak Attack?  Ex.  Bonus Feats?  Ex.  Spells?  Well, there's a kinda obvious pattern...

But just for anyone not clear on what Na abilities are, here's some definitions:

Rules of the Game: 
Quote
Natural Ability: This term is a catch-all for just about anything a creature can do (or characteristic that it has) that is not extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. Natural abilities include most speed ratings (some very high speeds are not "natural," see the section on the alter self spell), mode of breathing (lungs, gills), natural armor and weaponry, general appearance, body type, and the presence or absence of the five basic senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, pain). When polymorphing, you generally lose your own natural abilities and gain those of your assumed form.

PHB Glossary: 
Quote
A nonmagical capability, such as walking, swimming (for aquatic creatures), and flight (for winged creatures.

PHB 180: 
Quote
Natural Abilities:  This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature, such as a bird's ability to fly.  Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like

As you can see, it's not stuff you learn to do.  It's stuff based on what you physically are.  A Solar's fly speed is Na because it has wings.  Its ability to cast spells?  Not so much.

JaronK
May I ask where you're getting that Fighter bonus feats are abilities? They look an awful lot like class features to me, is all. Not that I think the rules *necessarily* support that spellcasting isn't Ex, I just don't think a class feature such as a bonus feat is necessarily considered an ability, either.

Before hitting "Post" though, I'd like to clarify that I don't mean the feats themselves aren't abilities. The feats themselves obviously are abilities, mostly being Ex (but not all). That doesn't necessarily mean that the fighter's ability (not the game term "ability," just generic "ability") to take the feats as bonus feats is an ability (in game terms).

Whew, too much "ability" in that paragraph.

Not all class features are necessarily "abilities," so I can see where those arguing are coming from. That's why in my campaigns I Rule Zero that spellcasting is not an ability at all, and therefore not able to be gained through Polymorph or Shapechange. I am not going to argue either way, I just can see where both sides are coming from.

I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're saying, Jaron. Look at Sneak Attack, it doesn't have an ability descriptor. Evasion does, Uncanny Dodge does, etc. This would seem to indicate that Sneak Attack isn't considered a Special Attack. It would instead just simply be a class feature. "Spells" is also not given a descriptor.

This isn't ever spelled out explicitly anywhere as far as I know, so I doubt either side will be able to find a quote that creates an auto-win. I think, though, that just by applying contextual information and a little common sense one comes to the conclusion that spellcasting is not an ability, but is rather a class feature. I won't say that this is objectively true, simply because there isn't any rules text that dictates it to be so. However, there also isn't any rules text that dictates that it is not so. The same two qualities apply to the claim that spellcasting is an ability.

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Bester

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #101 on: February 28, 2011, 08:40:31 PM »
Since when have me and Jaron agreed on anything? Sure it's happened before...etc

I hope you guys never agree.  Over the last 2 weeks we got an interesting scouting handbook out of your disagreement.

Of course, it's for tier 3 classes, but alot of us play at those levels.

Unfortunately we lost another handbook at the same time.  Probably the better one of the two for the optimizer.

Mixster

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2011, 08:52:01 PM »
Interesting view Beholder. It does make sense logically to me. It also falls within one of the four ways of getting around the "Special abilities are either Ex, Su or Sp." clause.

Actually reading the rules closer.
Nowhere does it say spellcasting is an ability. While this seems odd. The Srd just keeps mentioning that the wizard (or sorcerer or druid, yes I looked at all of them actually) casts spells. Not that he has the ability to do so.

Assuming that it defaults to Ex is pretty standard. There is a large precedence for this. However, precedence for doing something is not an argument for always doing it.


This just begs the question:
If spells aren't abilities. What the hell are they then?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #103 on: February 28, 2011, 08:56:45 PM »
Interesting view Beholder. It does make sense logically to me. It also falls within one of the four ways of getting around the "Special abilities are either Ex, Su or Sp." clause.

Actually reading the rules closer.
Nowhere does it say spellcasting is an ability. While this seems odd. The Srd just keeps mentioning that the wizard (or sorcerer or druid, yes I looked at all of them actually) casts spells. Not that he has the ability to do so.

Assuming that it defaults to Ex is pretty standard. There is a large precedence for this. However, precedence for doing something is not an argument for always doing it.


This just begs the question:
If spells aren't abilities. What the hell are they then?

They're creatures. Or maybe magic items.
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Mixster

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2011, 09:02:09 PM »
Interesting view Beholder. It does make sense logically to me. It also falls within one of the four ways of getting around the "Special abilities are either Ex, Su or Sp." clause.

Actually reading the rules closer.
Nowhere does it say spellcasting is an ability. While this seems odd. The Srd just keeps mentioning that the wizard (or sorcerer or druid, yes I looked at all of them actually) casts spells. Not that he has the ability to do so.

Assuming that it defaults to Ex is pretty standard. There is a large precedence for this. However, precedence for doing something is not an argument for always doing it.


This just begs the question:
If spells aren't abilities. What the hell are they then?

They're creatures. Or maybe magic items.
:lmao

Probably should have written Spellcasting there.
So let me try again. If spellcasting isn't an ability, what is it?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2011, 09:06:16 PM »
I would say that "Spells" is simply a class feature. Class features are not necessarily abilities, as far as I know. I might be wrong, but I don't think there is a rules quote anywhere that says that all class features are abilities.

Now, a contradictory point would be that monsters with sneak attack (such as the Marrulurk) have Sneak Attack listed under Special Attacks, and by the PHB all special attacks are an ability of some type (I think that's what it says, I'm busy running a game right now and am focused on trampling my players with a Tlalusk at the moment).

So, as usual in these types of things, there is conflicting information available. For me, it's just cleaner to Rule Zero it.

Yeah, I know that doesn't really help. :)

So, in the case of creatures like a Solar (spells) or the Marrulurk (Sneak Attack), spells and sneak attack can be said to be lumped in to Special Attacks because they just don't fit anywhere else as well. It just makes for interesting contradictions. In this case, they would be class features of the creature's racial hit dice, as per monster classes from Savage Species. Interestingly enough, though, Sneak Attack under Marrulurk is classified as Ex whereas the Rogue's is not.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 09:13:36 PM by BeholderSlayer »
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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2011, 09:07:24 PM »
Interesting view Beholder. It does make sense logically to me. It also falls within one of the four ways of getting around the "Special abilities are either Ex, Su or Sp." clause.

Actually reading the rules closer.
Nowhere does it say spellcasting is an ability. While this seems odd. The Srd just keeps mentioning that the wizard (or sorcerer or druid, yes I looked at all of them actually) casts spells. Not that he has the ability to do so.

Assuming that it defaults to Ex is pretty standard. There is a large precedence for this. However, precedence for doing something is not an argument for always doing it.


This just begs the question:
If spells aren't abilities. What the hell are they then?

They're creatures. Or maybe magic items.
:lmao

Probably should have written Spellcasting there.
So let me try again. If spellcasting isn't an ability, what is it?
A feature?
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Bester

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #107 on: February 28, 2011, 09:13:27 PM »
They're creatures. Or maybe magic items.

Spellthief can steal them and use them as if he were the original owner.

Spells are owned...therefore are items.

Mixster

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #108 on: February 28, 2011, 09:16:08 PM »
I would say that "Spells" is simply a class feature. Class features are not necessarily abilities, as far as I know. I might be wrong, but I don't think there is a rules quote anywhere that says that all class features are abilities.
(...)
So, in the case of creatures like a Solar (spells) or the Marrulurk (Sneak Attack), spells and sneak attack can be said to be lumped in to Special Attacks because they just don't fit anywhere else as well. It just makes for interesting contradictions. In this case, they would be class features of the creature's racial hit dice, as per monster classes from Savage Species.

I agree that this is the base of the problem. Can spells be a special ability on some monsters, and a class feature on some? Why aren't they classified like everything else.

Off course the best solution is to Rule Zero it. But that is the best solution to anything. Some GMs need to justify their rules with being, that is how I read it. I for one usually do it that way, if I'm totally confused and don't know how to read it. Things will get weird.

I would probably rule zero it to not be something you can snatch with Shapechange or Polymorph. For balance reasons. But I think RAW goes the other way.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Kajhera

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #109 on: February 28, 2011, 09:17:19 PM »
Obviously spellcasters don't actually have the ability to cast spells.

All that world-changing reality-breaking stuff happening? Smoke and mirrors, boys, smoke and mirrors.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #110 on: February 28, 2011, 09:20:12 PM »
Obviously spellcasters don't actually have the ability to cast spells.

All that world-changing reality-breaking stuff happening? Smoke and mirrors, boys, smoke and mirrors.
Now I get it! Casters are in reality masters of deception and persvasion. They don't change worlds, they make you BELIEVE they did it. :D
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Kajhera

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #111 on: February 28, 2011, 09:22:16 PM »
Obviously spellcasters don't actually have the ability to cast spells.

All that world-changing reality-breaking stuff happening? Smoke and mirrors, boys, smoke and mirrors.
Now I get it! Casters are in reality masters of deception and persvasion. They don't change worlds, they make you BELIEVE they did it. :D

The -5 on Bluff checks is just to lure you into complacency.

wotmaniac

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #112 on: February 28, 2011, 09:25:17 PM »
GODDAMMIT!!! FUCK MY COMPUTER!!! 2 HOURS CRAFTING WALL O' TEXT -- GONE!!!
and i'm not gonna try to recreate all of it.

okay, long story short -- in light of considering feats being primarily EX, I may be ready to concede that spellcasting may fall here, instead of in NA.
of course, the whole thing with sneak attack not being classified either certainly raises some more questions.
may need to make sure that polymorph/shapechange reads "do not gain abilities that are gained via class levels or feats".  but then there's shit like dragons and spell weavers.  :shrug



oh, and will the offenders please stop abusing terminology?  just "ability" is a descriptive term; one that could just as easily be used interchangeably with any of its synonyms.  "special ability" is a specifically defined term.  it's as bad as something like this:
person 1) well, the character's skill with a sword ....
person 2) oh, there's no such "Skill" as "sword use"
:facepalm

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #113 on: February 28, 2011, 09:26:07 PM »
person 1) well, the character's skill with a sword ....
person 2) oh, there's no such "Skill" as "sword use"
:facepalm
Yes there is.  It's called Iaijutsu Focus.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #114 on: February 28, 2011, 09:26:52 PM »
person 1) well, the character's skill with a sword ....
person 2) oh, there's no such "Skill" as "sword use"
:facepalm
Yes there is.  It's called Iaijutsu Focus.
:lmao
 :fu

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I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #115 on: February 28, 2011, 09:27:14 PM »
I agree it causes a lot of problems, and it would have been nice if WotC could have been consistent. I don't think there is a sane DM that will allow snagging spells with Polymorph etc. anyway, though. What it does do is make Shapechange *slightly* less ridiculous. It makes it at least playable in my campaigns, especially because my players don't have monsters' Su abilities memorized.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2011, 09:30:34 PM »
As noted, spellcasting is Ex. However, the spells themselves are not. Nor is the knowledge of the spells.

And other than PAO (whose problems are multitudinous already), you'll rarely be shapeshifted long enough to rest for the 8+1 hours it normally takes to refresh spells.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #117 on: February 28, 2011, 09:34:27 PM »
As noted, spellcasting is Ex. However, the spells themselves are not. Nor is the knowledge of the spells.

And other than PAO (whose problems are multitudinous already), you'll rarely be shapeshifted long enough to rest for the 8+1 hours it normally takes to refresh spells.
Well, technically, spellcasting doesn't exist outside spells, so it's not Ex because it's not an ability at all.  :D I haven't seen an entry that says "spellcasting" under special attacks.

Silly and pointless, yeah, I know.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #118 on: February 28, 2011, 09:36:39 PM »
As noted, spellcasting is Ex. However, the spells themselves are not. Nor is the knowledge of the spells.

And other than PAO (whose problems are multitudinous already), you'll rarely be shapeshifted long enough to rest for the 8+1 hours it normally takes to refresh spells.
good point -- making this entire discussion largely irrelevant. :p
(well, there is persist spell ....)

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If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #119 on: February 28, 2011, 09:45:37 PM »
And why is this an issue, anyway?

Summoning something to cast spells for you is better anyway, if only due to action economy.

And is totally and indisputably RAW to boot.
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