Author Topic: Fuck You to casters.  (Read 60866 times)

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Amechra

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Fuck You to casters.
« on: February 26, 2011, 12:48:16 AM »
I would like you to remember one thing: natural abilities (IE, not Su, Sp, or Ex) are duplicated by the Polymorph line of spells, as they are innate parts of that form.

Why do I want you to remember this? A Karsite's inability to cast spells is a natural ability; therefor, if you turn a spellcaster into a Karsite, they instantly lose the ability to cast spells.

Smack with Dispel Magic (high enough caster level), Polymorph, and laugh at the commoner that stands before you...

Obviously, this needs some work, but it looks like this should work.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
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juton

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2011, 12:57:34 AM »
It's not a whole lot, sad to say. It is touch range, you can fix the range issue but if you have the resources to do that you have the resources to do something a bit more effective. In play I find silence, used sparingly to be a game ender for most casters, I try to buy magical oils of silence (like a potion but not for drinking) and apply it to the ground by throwing it. A caster has counters, but a lot of them forget about silence, the key is not to make it a go-to tactic or your DM will adapt.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 01:00:12 AM by juton »

Andion Isurand

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2011, 01:03:47 AM »
Polymoprh only works on a willing creature touched.

Baleful Polymorph has a close range, but already causes the target to lose class features.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2011, 01:03:59 AM »
It's not a whole lot, sad to say. It is touch range, you can fix the range issue but if you have the resources to do that you have the resources to do something a bit more effective. In play I find silence, used sparingly to be a game ender for most casters, I try to buy magical oils of silence (like a potion but not for drinking) and apply it to the ground by throwing it. A caster has counters, but a lot of them forget about silence, the key is not to make it a go-to tactic or your DM will adapt.
And neither issue works against psionics. Which is awesome for manifesters, but still.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2011, 01:34:43 AM »
I've been Baleful Polymorphed. That shit sucks. Failed both saves. I would rather it were a save-or-die, at least then I wouldn't be a fucking tiny viper.
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snakeman830

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2011, 01:46:23 AM »
It's not a whole lot, sad to say. It is touch range, you can fix the range issue but if you have the resources to do that you have the resources to do something a bit more effective. In play I find silence, used sparingly to be a game ender for most casters, I try to buy magical oils of silence (like a potion but not for drinking) and apply it to the ground by throwing it. A caster has counters, but a lot of them forget about silence, the key is not to make it a go-to tactic or your DM will adapt.
And neither issue works against psionics. Which is awesome for manifesters, but still.
For that matter, turning the manifester into a Karsite doesn't hinder their ability at all either.
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juton

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2011, 01:50:39 AM »
While it is fun to point out gotchas, let's not devolve this into another thread of Schroedinger's caster. Looking again, polymorph doesn't require a save, but it only works on willing creatures. Is there some way to make a creature willing, when it doesn't want to be, preferably without a save.

Sobolev

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2011, 02:09:15 AM »
While it is fun to point out gotchas, let's not devolve this into another thread of Schroedinger's caster. Looking again, polymorph doesn't require a save, but it only works on willing creatures. Is there some way to make a creature willing, when it doesn't want to be, preferably without a save.

Unconscious creatures are ALWAYS willing.
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Amechra

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2011, 02:19:07 AM »
Something else: what ways are there to hit someone with a Personal range spell? Because Alter Self has no save, no SR, and thus is a way to go ahead and say fuck you.

Especially when persisted.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Bozwevial

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2011, 02:47:55 AM »
Well, if you do that, you might as well hit them with a Tenser's Transformation. Or a Transcend Mortality which you then dismiss.

Amechra

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2011, 02:58:33 AM »
True, but stripping them of magic with no other real benefit is just funny.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Bauglir

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2011, 03:05:28 AM »
Something else: what ways are there to hit someone with a Personal range spell? Because Alter Self has no save, no SR, and thus is a way to go ahead and say fuck you.

Especially when persisted.

3rd level class feature of the Ordained Champion is the best method I know of. Converts it to Touch, but you'll need to dump a minimum of 4 levels to get it :(

So the only way to get it and 9th level spells are Dragonwrought Kobold shenanigans, Sharn shenanigans, or Phaerimm shenanigans, off the top of my head. Shenanigans, is my point. I could've been briefer with that summary, but it's just a fun word.
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JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2011, 07:32:20 AM »
I would like you to remember one thing: natural abilities (IE, not Su, Sp, or Ex) are duplicated by the Polymorph line of spells, as they are innate parts of that form.

Why do I want you to remember this? A Karsite's inability to cast spells is a natural ability; therefor, if you turn a spellcaster into a Karsite, they instantly lose the ability to cast spells.

Spellcasting isn't Na.  Seriously, look at every definition of Na abilities ever.

Quote from: Rules of the Game:  All About Polymorph 1
Natural Ability: This term is a catch-all for just about anything a creature can do (or characteristic that it has) that is not extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. Natural abilities include most speed ratings (some very high speeds are not "natural," see the section on the alter self spell), mode of breathing (lungs, gills), natural armor and weaponry, general appearance, body type, and the presence or absence of the five basic senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, pain). When polymorphing, you generally lose your own natural abilities and gain those of your assumed form.

Natural abilities are those abilities which are inherent to the physical form of the critter (like fly speeds for a critter that has wings, or claw attacks for a creature who has claws).  This is backed up by the PHB and SRD. 

Furthermore, NO special ability is natural.  Here's the definition of a Special Ability:

Quote from: SRD
Special Abilities

A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.

Since Spells are a Special Attack, which is a subcategory of Special Ability, they have to be one of those three.

They are, however, Ex (I don't want to get into the full thing here, but they are), and those ARE lost if they're not from class levels.  Note that while the ability to cast spells itself is not magical (you can tell because you still have the ability when you're in an Antimagic field, you just can't get the spells off without the Invoke Magic spell):

Quote
Extraordinary Ability: Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without natural talent or extensive training. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

Extraordinary abilities often depend on particular physical adaptations that a creature has. Changing form often strips the recipient of some extraordinary abilities, but grants some extraordinary abilities that the assumed form has. In general, when you assume a new form, you lose any extraordinary special attacks and special qualities you have unless you get them from a character class. You usually gain any extraordinary special attacks your assumed form has, but not the assumed form's extraordinary special qualities. That's because most extraordinary special attacks are based off gross physical features (such a big, nasty claws and teeth) while extraordinary special qualities tend to be subtler and largely derived from a creature's essential nature.

So yes, polymorph does remove spellcasting, but let's not start calling them natural again (otherwise, you can Alter Self into something with casting and gain casting from that, since Alter Self grants Na abilities!).

JaronK

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2011, 08:10:46 AM »
I think theirs a skill trick that lets you trick the person your casting the spell on into thinking its another spell.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2011, 10:08:44 AM »
If the caster is unconscious, you can just you know, kill them. This is entirely useless.
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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2011, 10:44:25 AM »
Spellguard of the Silvery Moon gets allows you to morph defensive spells with range of personal into touch ones.

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2011, 10:48:28 AM »
Unconscious creatures are ALWAYS willing.

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2011, 12:21:54 PM »
Nice try but the only way to make casters commoners is to not allow them to prepare spells/slots. That requires DM-enforced circumstances or for the caster to require sleep. :(
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Barbarossa

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2011, 01:59:28 PM »
With the feat Divine Ward, you can cast touch range spells as 'close' range spells instead by spending a turn/rebuke attempt. After that, you'll need a way to get around the opponent's unwillingness. Diplomancy? Psionics? I don't know. Once you take care of that, you can turn casters into Karsites all day long, from a maximum of 125 feet away at level 20. There's no saving throw and no spell resistance, so it's akin to an instant death beam.

1. Find a way to hide under a wizard for 10 minutes. Xorn movement?
2. Use Divine Ward to be able to cast touch spells on them at close range.
3. ??? (Make them willing in here)
4. Karsite-ify!

awaken DM golem

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Re: Fuck You to casters.
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2011, 04:00:23 PM »
Any Psi with Magic Mantle could be screwed too.

(assuming they're already using the broader definition of magic mantle)