Idea: Non-dippable base classes.

[Nytemare3701]

As many of you know, I'm working on a rewrite to the PHB, including the base classes. My design goal is to have the first 6 levels of the class be the original D&D character chassis, with all the iconic abilities. What do you think about making those non-dippable, ie you have to stay in the class till you reach 6?

[lans]

Not a terrible idea, spell casters are fine as is. Maybe toss some flavor abilities onto them.

So something like-
Fighter-A feat a level, and choice of Dungeon Crasher, Swift Intimidate, or Overpowering attack at 6? Maybe add some of the other options at 2 and 4?

[bearsarebrown]

Tome does it better with abilties that cease to scale or functional at all unless you take enough levels. Look at Ninja and Barbarian for specifics.

[Rejakor]

Write the abilities so they scale to the class and aren't just super useful as a dip.

Like Tome does, basically.

If you dip barbarian 2 in tome, at level 8, you get abilities suited to a level 2 character.  Not a level 8 character.  And that is totally fine.

[SeekingKnight]

Ummm odd question but if you dipped barbarian 2 in the current system wouldn't you have barbarian 2 powers? Like say fighter 6 barbarian 2 is 8th level said character has rage 1/day, fast movement, uncanny dodge ect of a barbarian while fighter has four fighter feats.

[Unbeliever]

Not to be obtuse, but what's the appeal of this?  What are you gaining from non-dippable base classes? 

[Rejakor]

Rage is supposed to be the barbarian 'schtick' til level 12.  A barbarian 2 can do it, just less times per day, which, in the 15 minute workday, isn't a big deal.

Paladin 2 nabs you cha to saves.  Barbarian 1 Lion Totem grants you Pounce.

Etc etc.  Lots of classes have frontloaded things that don't scale.  Lots of melee builds just tour around different classes collecting all the benefits.

[Unbeliever]

Rage is supposed to be the barbarian 'schtick' til level 12.  A barbarian 2 can do it, just less times per day, which, in the 15 minute workday, isn't a big deal.

Paladin 2 nabs you cha to saves.  Barbarian 1 Lion Totem grants you Pounce.

Etc etc.  Lots of classes have frontloaded things that don't scale.  Lots of melee builds just tour around different classes collecting all the benefits.

Sure, I mean, I know that's true.  I just don't know what's that bad about it.  I've always kind of thought of it as a feature rather than a flaw.  Something sort of along the lines of "here are a bunch of building blocks that you may find useful for your martial builds, pick which ones suit your concept/tactics." 

I do agree that it'd be nicer if there were more classes that worked fine "out of the box," w/out any huge investments of creativity needed, but that's a separate issue. 

[Sobolev]

I hope these rewrites will be a little better, because as many have said, staying in Wizard until 6, not a big deal.  Staying in Fighter for six levels is...sorta meh.

[JaronK]

Forcing people not to dip is a bad mechanic.  Making it worthwhile to stay in the class is much better.

Personally, I think Barbarians should get Pounce at level 6 (not as a substitution though).  Pounce at level 1 just front loads the class far too much.

JaronK

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Rage is supposed to be the barbarian 'schtick' til level 12.  A barbarian 2 can do it, just less times per day, which, in the 15 minute workday, isn't a big deal.

Paladin 2 nabs you cha to saves.  Barbarian 1 Lion Totem grants you Pounce.

Etc etc.  Lots of classes have frontloaded things that don't scale.  Lots of melee builds just tour around different classes collecting all the benefits.

The problem is more that greater rage isn't good enough to be a significant difference.  If rage scaled better it wouldn't be an issue

[JaronK]

Well, pounce at level 1 would still be an issue.  But it would be less of one if there was a point to going even to Barbarian 3.

JaronK

[Lycanthromancer]

Forcing people not to dip is a bad mechanic.  Making it worthwhile to stay in the class is much better.

Personally, I think Barbarians should get Pounce at level 6 (not as a substitution though).  Pounce at level 1 just front loads the class far too much.

JaronK

Agreed, on both counts.

There's nothing wrong with dipping, if it gets you the abilities you want. After all, what's the in-game difference between taking a level in fighter, a level in warblade, a level in crusader, or a level in barbarian? They all hit stuff hard, but in different ways.