Author Topic: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?  (Read 6374 times)

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Kaelik

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2011, 05:06:31 AM »
Part of the problem is simply that lots of people present Ur-Priest Sublime Chord builds. But people also Present Wizard 20 builds.

The problem comes up in that if you are talking about a Wizard 20 build, you stat it to 20 in generic, because from a 20 build, you can see all level 1-19 stuff, as it is part of the build. So sometimes people presenting builds good at every level can be perceived as level 20 builds, just because Shapechange exists.

Benly

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2011, 10:50:31 PM »
I used to see more of this problem, but it's not as big as it used to be. The big place I still see it now and then is in the occasional fixation on "9 by 20" - focusing more on whether you're still getting level 9 spells at level 20 than what you'll need in the range where the build is to be used.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2011, 12:57:26 AM »
PsyRef at level 7 allows a continual fix-it, from that point on.
You might not suck too, before level 7.

Lurk and Divine Mind have so few options available.
Class 4 or 3 / Bloodline 3 / Trickster 2 / Legacy Champ 2
And you're all done. While this is levels 10 or 11,
you're talking about only mildly interesting stuff before then.

Plus hey, who needs Epic when you've got the CO-board ??

awaken DM golem

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2011, 01:06:43 AM »
Oh and ... Warforged 1 + any Psi fester class, 1 or 2 flaws, the Psiforged feat,
and Azure Talent and (?) Psycarnum Infusion feats from Magic of Incarnum,
is the earliest psi-recharge set-up.

No real need to optimize further, but do need to discuss definitions of borkny with DM, though.

Kaelik

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2011, 04:04:44 AM »
I used to see more of this problem, but it's not as big as it used to be. The big place I still see it now and then is in the occasional fixation on "9 by 20" - focusing more on whether you're still getting level 9 spells at level 20 than what you'll need in the range where the build is to be used.

To be clear, the problem with 9 by 20 is that people think it's okay, as long as you have level 9 spells by level 20, to present a bunch of builds that suck for 14 levels.

If your build doesn't get level 9 spells by level 20, (and it is a spellcasting build) it is in fact a terrible build, because it also didn't get level 4 spells by 7, or level 5 spells by 9.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2011, 03:15:15 AM »
Plus ... epic is boring as hell.

There's epic spells, the dire tortoise, and everything else.

I mean even if you're trying to play a Weak sauce game,
you get silliness like Divine Mind 30 with epic "spells" (finally),
one good aura and some free action cheese.

And why wait til level 30?

Benly

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2011, 04:30:25 AM »
To be clear, the problem with 9 by 20 is that people think it's okay, as long as you have level 9 spells by level 20, to present a bunch of builds that suck for 14 levels.

If your build doesn't get level 9 spells by level 20, (and it is a spellcasting build) it is in fact a terrible build, because it also didn't get level 4 spells by 7, or level 5 spells by 9.

Mostly agreed - I've seen gish builds get chewed out for not having 9 by 20 when they're getting rather acceptable tradeoffs for it given their goals and play style. As a general rule I agree, though.

(I also think it's okay to be a level behind your spells if you're getting something good enough for it - I like Pale Master for necromancers in situations where other free-undead shenanigans are off the table, although I'm aware I'm in the minority on that.)

snakeman830

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2011, 06:19:15 AM »
Honestly, I've never seen the huge deal with making sure your build has 9th level spells.  8th level is more than powerful enough and even having 7th level spells is unecessary for most encounters.
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JaronK

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2011, 06:36:01 AM »
Honestly, I've never seen the huge deal with making sure your build has 9th level spells.  8th level is more than powerful enough and even having 7th level spells is unecessary for most encounters.

If you make a choice because it makes you more powerful, but the result is you lose a spell level, in general you probably didn't achieve your goal (more power).  If more power wasn't your goal, then it's fine (for example, maybe you wanted something more characterful, or simply don't want ridiculous power).

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RelentlessImp

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2011, 01:19:27 AM »
Honestly, I've never seen the huge deal with making sure your build has 9th level spells.  8th level is more than powerful enough and even having 7th level spells is unecessary for most encounters.

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For everything else, there's Lesser Spells(TM).
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2011, 02:20:22 AM »
Honestly, I've never seen the huge deal with making sure your build has 9th level spells.  8th level is more than powerful enough and even having 7th level spells is unecessary for most encounters.

Five words: Time Stop, Shapechange, True Resurrectiongenesis.

For everything else, there's Lesser Spells(TM).
ftfy. Plenty of things make it hard/impossible to true res. Getting into a sealed demi-plane aint so easy for mere mortals.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2011, 02:26:40 AM »
DMM:Persist and Revivify/Revenance (whatever that combo is) mean that only Clerics with Animal/Transmutation domain get the maximum benefit of 9th level spells (though you still want an un-buffed caster level equal to your hit dice, via Illumian/Practiced Spellcaster).

So really, Clerics at least can safely lose 4 casters most of the time if they just take a single feat.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 02:28:15 AM by skydragonknight »
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JaronK

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Re: Character Optimisation Question: Why level 20?
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2011, 04:55:52 AM »
ftfy. Plenty of things make it hard/impossible to true res. Getting into a sealed demi-plane aint so easy for mere mortals.

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