Author Topic: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function  (Read 25413 times)

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Lycanthromancer

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Specific concepts should be allowed in specific settings/campaigns. For example in Sigil practicly nothing would be out of place. :D
Betcha I could reflavor very nearly any build to fit neatly into nearly any campaign.
Proof or GTFO. :P
Add JellO. There's ALWAYS room for JellO.

Anyway, give an oddball build and the description of a campaign world, and I'll see what I can do.

I say that would be worth a thread on it's own. We really need a reflavoring/refluffing handbook for this kind of stuff.
That sounds fun. Who'd like to do the honors?
I will.
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I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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So... what's wrong with pragmatism? A high-intelligence LG Wizard will eventually see that the Corpse member of the party is doing nothing but wasting the rest of the party's resources. If someone with a non-omniscient intelligence score can see it, what do you think happens when someone who DOES have said intelligence score examines the problem?

Here's the real, non metagamed answer:

If Wizards really were as powerful as presented, they wouldn't have adventures.  There'd be no parties.  They'd be off doing whatever they want, and at some point someone would tell them "hey, the arch lich Grakthok is going to destroy the world!"  So the Wizard would say "The world?  But that's where I keep my stuff!"  And so the Wizard would find a Commoner, Mindrape the Commoner into loving Grakthok, use Love's Pain to instant kill Grakthok with no save, and then cast Genesis so that he'd have a new, safer place to keep his stuff.  Why?  Because a character with an Int of 30+ and plenty of Spellcraft has no excuse for not coming up with such a trick.  If they're a decent sort of fellow, they might just Mindrape the Commoner back into not remembering any of it, just so as to avoid causing trauma, and then maybe give the Commoner a tunic that says "I saved the world as a level 1 Commoner and all I got was this tunic!"

At no point would these real Wizards go adventuring around.  That's dangerous!  If they wanted treasure, they'd use their super Int and realize they can call Efreetis (via Planar Binding) and get endless wishes (seriously, what super genius Wizard wouldn't think of wishing for Candles of Invocation?).  They'd probably, knowing it might come up some day, just pump their abilities up that way.  And they'd do heaven knows what else with their endless wishes too... probably get some backup clones of themselves, maybe get a bunch of Simacrulums made of themselves, maybe spend a year carving out crazy deathtrap dungeons with Move Earth and Fabricate and Magecraft and Programmed Image just because they could, whatever they felt like.  Because if we weren't metagaming, no one would say "oh, that's overpowered."  It would just be "oh, that's what I can do if I want anything."  And the only way any adventures of the D&D type would ever happen is if the Wizards and Archivists and Clerics and others who have this sort of power just left the material plane and couldn't be reached or didn't feel like doing anything about it.

Seriously, that's what would really happen.  It's only metagaming that makes Wizard types actually adventure around at all.  People think adventuring about is what you're supposed to do (and, as a game, it is) and so they do that.  Without metagaming, adventuring would only happen with T3 and below types, except if Sorcerers can't actually chose their spells and thus don't get the broken ones or something in which case they might have not done the Planar Binding trick too.  Heck, the other Int based guys would probably also be trying to get a Candle of Invocation ASAP too.

JaronK
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 05:27:08 AM by JaronK »

Amadi

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Ah, well, in that case, the same reason four strangers who met in a tavern decided to go adventuring in the first place.

This reminds me.

I was invited to "rp-heavy" campaign IRL. I whipped up a wizard guy, a human. An apprentice who was not certain of his powers, and was afraid of using them against people. He was also somewhat paranoid, because his old master used to play tricks involving small "harmless" demons on him, and was a big fan of practical jokes. Lawful Neutral, fairly honorable guy, one that was for keeping traditions.

So, we obviously meet in an inn. My character sipping tea at a corner table and studying a textbook on abjurations. So, without any notice, my table is invaded by nothing less than a loud goblin with a lute, a hulking orc with a greataxe the size of the table, and the compulsory drunk dwarf. I kindly tell them to leave, stating that I am running a class to greenhorns at the college and that I have to prepare tomorrow's material. They seem adamant on staying, though, and since I don't want to pick a fight, I reluctantly share a table.

At least the experience didn't as long as it could've, since suddenly a mysterious stranger appears to our table, complete with all the accessories. He tells us he's offering us a job, and at this point I declare to him that I will have nothing to do with it, and that I already have a paying job at the college. He urges me to at least listen, pressing that it is a great opportunity. Unwillingly, I listen with half of an ear as he recites the specifics to the rest of the group. We were to retrieve an old artifact, belonging to the church of Mask, from a orc village. The tribe had raided the temple sometime, and is probably not even aware of the item's properties.

Well, surprise surprise, most of the group agrees to do it. The dwarf is in a condition where he'd agree to anything if you bought him a pint, the orc doesn't seem to mind, and the goblin apparently really needs the coin. Everything seems to be running smoothly, then, replying accordingly to what my character would think..

"No.

First of all, your offer is inherently suspicious. Either the church of Mask, an organization with unquestionably more resources than us, cannot reclaim an item from a simple tribe of orcs, leading me to believe there is something odd going on in here. The other alternative is that this is a test, in which case you will send us on a suicide mission later, as we non-worshippers are not valuable. Further, I'd really rather have nothing to do with not now, nor in the future.

Further, barring complete extermination of the tribe, this action will incite counteraction from the tribe in question, almost certainly putting nearby civilians in unneeded harm.

No, your goals are not clear and do not seem to be honorable in the least. I will have nothing to do with this."

MFW the DM rages at me for 20 minutes about how I am supposed to go with the story: :eh

Gods_Trick

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Ah, well, in that case, the same reason four strangers who met in a tavern decided to go adventuring in the first place.

This reminds me.

I was invited to "rp-heavy" campaign IRL. I whipped up a wizard guy, a human. An apprentice who was not certain of his powers, and was afraid of using them against people. He was also somewhat paranoid, because his old master used to play tricks involving small "harmless" demons on him, and was a big fan of practical jokes. Lawful Neutral, fairly honorable guy, one that was for keeping traditions.

No, your goals are not clear and do not seem to be honorable in the least. I will have nothing to do with this."

MFW the DM rages at me for 20 minutes about how I am supposed to go with the story: :eh

To be fair Amadi, only insane, desperate and omnicidal people go adventuring. You made the mistake of roleplaying a real person   ;)

Sunic_Flames

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Here is the measuring stick with which characters should be measured. Notice how they only expect Rogue level to be playing the same game as Wizards up to level 10. So my question is this:

By what fucking rubric do you expect a level 10+ rogue to be playing the same game as the rest of the party? Sure, most games might not make it to or past level 10, but why do you keep holding up stealthy characters (IE, the rogue archetype) as valid?

Now only that, but they assume a specific build of Rogue, highly optimized at that.

But yes. Incompetents are expected to be booted from the party, either before they die, or posthumously. Good party might leave them in town. Neutral party says fuck off. Evil party kills them in their sleep. Either way, same end result. Party continues without gimp. Gimp has been filtered out. That requires no metagaming to do.

What does require metagaming to do is explaining why these fuckers are babysitting on the battlefield.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Quote
No, your goals are not clear and do not seem to be honorable in the least. I will have nothing to do with this."

MFW the DM rages at me for 20 minutes about how I am supposed to go with the story:
Tee hee tee hee hee! Hee hee hee!  :lol  :tantrum  :lol
Thanks for that. You've started my day off right.
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awaken DM golem

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Everybody loves an underdog.

He's an anthropomorphic riding dog btw.
At least he gets some tail occasionally.

Even if it IS his own.

You are PG-13 spoiling my post-toddlerhood remembrance of Under Dog ...  :fu :pout

Lycanthromancer

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Everybody loves an underdog.

He's an anthropomorphic riding dog btw.
At least he gets some tail occasionally.

Even if it IS his own.

You are PG-13 spoiling my post-toddlerhood remembrance of Under Dog ...  :fu :pout

Little did we know that he wore Under Roos.

They were twins. :D
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Everybody loves an underdog.

He's an anthropomorphic riding dog btw.
At least he gets some tail occasionally.

Even if it IS his own.

You are PG-13 spoiling my post-toddlerhood remembrance of Under Dog ...  :fu :pout

Little did we know that he wore Under Roos.

They were twins. :D

Now you are R-rated spoiling my post-adolescent remembrance of Roos.