Author Topic: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function  (Read 38959 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #180 on: February 28, 2011, 09:29:29 PM »
Specific concepts should be allowed in specific settings/campaigns. For example in Sigil practicly nothing would be out of place. :D
Betcha I could reflavor very nearly any build to fit neatly into nearly any campaign.
Proof or GTFO. :P
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Kajhera

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #181 on: February 28, 2011, 09:30:03 PM »
Specific concepts should be allowed in specific settings/campaigns. For example in Sigil practicly nothing would be out of place. :D
Betcha I could reflavor very nearly any build to fit neatly into nearly any campaign.
Proof or GTFO. :P
Add JellO. There's ALWAYS room for JellO.

Anyway, give an oddball build and the description of a campaign world, and I'll see what I can do.

I say that would be worth a thread on it's own. We really need a reflavoring/refluffing handbook for this kind of stuff.
That sounds fun. Who'd like to do the honors?

RelentlessImp

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #182 on: February 28, 2011, 09:39:44 PM »
And then it's about two of three players ditching the useless memeber of the party who can't cast planar binding for his personal growing army of arcane monsters (aka the druid).

And then it's about one of two players ditching the useless member that hasn't wish-chained himself into unlimited arcane power.

And then there's a single player alone in the room foaming on how he's the Strongest while the DM managed to put some good sense on the three others and starts a new campaign where they aren't competing against each other but against the BBEG.
+1

What you are talking about, RelentlessImp, is something that should take place only in Evil campaigns or adventures, because then such dick moves are expected. When you're playing the LG Wizard, treating your teammates as cannon fodder, not so much.

Uhm. Why should it only happen in Evil campaigns? What I'm talking about is something that's pretty much an every day occurrence - both in a medieval society and in modern times. Someone doesn't pull their weight, they get fired. In medieval times, that means the serf gets his ass beaten for not working hard enough, or the peasant's family dies if he doesn't do enough work on the farm and grow enough food. In modern times, it means your ass gets booted out the door with severance pay.

So... what's wrong with pragmatism? A high-intelligence LG Wizard will eventually see that the Corpse member of the party is doing nothing but wasting the rest of the party's resources. If someone with a non-omniscient intelligence score can see it, what do you think happens when someone who DOES have said intelligence score examines the problem?

Edited because touchpad played merry hell with a highlighted section.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 09:41:34 PM by RelentlessImp »
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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #183 on: February 28, 2011, 09:47:42 PM »
I'm not gonna argue with you, because apparently it is your way of life and you don't understand (or don't want to understand) what I'm talking about.
I don't want to dive into a heated debate and get angry arguing on the internet. -_-
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oslecamo

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #184 on: February 28, 2011, 09:49:08 PM »
Uhm. Why should it only happen in Evil campaigns? What I'm talking about is something that's pretty much an every day occurrence - both in a medieval society and in modern times. Someone doesn't pull their weight, they get fired. In medieval times, that means the serf gets his ass beaten for not working hard enough. In modern times, it means your ass gets booted out the door with severance pay.

So... what's wrong with pragmatism? A high-intelligence LG Wizard will eventually see that the Corpse member of the party is doing nothing but wasting the rest of the party's resources. The peasant's family dies if he doesn't do enough work on the farm and grow enough food. If someone with a non-omniscient intelligence score can see it, what do you think happens when someone who DOES have said intelligence score examines the problem?

Mind telling that to our goverments? Because last time I readed the newspapers, banks who epic failed got free passes. A president got a nobel for doing pretty much nothing besides geting elected.  Corrupt people are everywhere in plain sight, and they seem to get the bigger paycheck bonus of all. You're not being pragmatic enough! :P

Now the noncaster can pull his weight with some optimization. You don't need armies of chained solars to beat CR-apropriate ecounters. And if you did, well, just go get some candles of invocation. I don't care that commoners can use them as well. All that matters is winning right?


RelentlessImp

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #185 on: February 28, 2011, 09:52:26 PM »
I'm not gonna argue with you, because apparently it is your way of life and you don't understand (or don't want to understand) what I'm talking about.
I don't want to dive into a heated debate and get angry arguing on the internet. -_-

Honestly, I'm trying to understand your position. It makes no sense to keep around someone who isn't actually capable of contributing and winds up needing 5,000gp worth of diamonds every few encounters, though. So, please, enlighten me as to why you would.

Mind telling that to our goverments? Because last time I readed the newspapers, banks who epic failed got free passes. A president got a nobel for doing pretty much nothing besides geting elected.  Corrupt people are everywhere in plain sight, and they seem to get the bigger paycheck bonus of all. You're not being pragmatic enough! :P

Now the noncaster can pull his weight with some optimization. You don't need armies of chained solars to beat CR-apropriate ecounters. And if you did, well, just go get some candles of invocation. I don't care that commoners can use them as well. All that matters is winning right?

Want to try that again with less bullshit filling the post, please?
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Bester

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #186 on: February 28, 2011, 09:54:07 PM »
Honestly, I'm trying to understand your position. It makes no sense to keep around someone who isn't actually capable of contributing and winds up needing 5,000gp worth of diamonds every few encounters, though. So, please, enlighten me as to why you would.

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Kajhera

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #187 on: February 28, 2011, 10:01:41 PM »
Honestly, I'm trying to understand your position. It makes no sense to keep around someone who isn't actually capable of contributing and winds up needing 5,000gp worth of diamonds every few encounters, though. So, please, enlighten me as to why you would.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #188 on: February 28, 2011, 10:03:05 PM »
I'm not gonna argue with you, because apparently it is your way of life and you don't understand (or don't want to understand) what I'm talking about.
I don't want to dive into a heated debate and get angry arguing on the internet. -_-

Honestly, I'm trying to understand your position. It makes no sense to keep around someone who isn't actually capable of contributing and winds up needing 5,000gp worth of diamonds every few encounters, though. So, please, enlighten me as to why you would.
Because somebody with that high int would realize the nature of the world; specifically, that having more party members = more enemies in encounters = more loot.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #189 on: February 28, 2011, 10:05:31 PM »
Any time a party member dies, you keep his stuff. Which you then sell or give to the party artificer to suck the soul energy from (ie, XP).

Three awesome characters and one gibbed pile of steaming failure = three really rich character and one recycled character sheet.
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #190 on: February 28, 2011, 10:07:19 PM »
Okay, I'll be the first to admit that I'm a powergamer, but I'm still a roleplayer at heart. So can we dispense with the near-to metagaming responses? :P
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #191 on: February 28, 2011, 10:09:33 PM »
Okay, I'll be the first to admit that I'm a powergamer, but I'm still a roleplayer at heart. So can we dispense with the near-to metagaming responses? :P
We're talking about a guy who has more intelligence than Stephen Hawking, Proteus Steinmetz, Reese "the yellow dart" Witherspoon, and Von Neumann combined.  I'm pretty sure that basic pattern recognition would not elude him.
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #192 on: February 28, 2011, 10:12:06 PM »
Okay, I'll be the first to admit that I'm a powergamer, but I'm still a roleplayer at heart. So can we dispense with the near-to metagaming responses? :P
We're talking about a guy who has more intelligence than Stephen Hawking, Proteus Steinmetz, Reese "the yellow dart" Witherspoon, and Von Neumann combined.  I'm pretty sure that basic pattern recognition would not elude him.

Well, yes, but then we get into the whole argument about fourth wall and what constitutes reality and I really don't feel up to a metaphysical discussion right now, so can we just nix those?
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #193 on: February 28, 2011, 10:14:32 PM »
Ah, well, in that case, the same reason four strangers who met in a tavern decided to go adventuring in the first place.


Alternate answer: tenure.
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #194 on: February 28, 2011, 10:18:33 PM »
Ah, well, in that case, the same reason four strangers who met in a tavern decided to go adventuring in the first place.


Alternate answer: tenure.

Well, the first one's assumed, but the question about the nigh-omniscient intelligence Wizard realizing the Corpse isn't contributing and costing them 5-10,000 gold every few encounters hasn't been answered without nigh-on metagaming.

Also, tenure only applies to Nodwick.
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Bester

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #195 on: February 28, 2011, 10:21:26 PM »
Ah, well, in that case, the same reason four strangers who met in a tavern decided to go adventuring in the first place.

Did I ever tell you about the time I beat a Horned Devil by myself.  I'm a monk you know.

"Prove it"

That's how four strangers meet in a tavern and decide to go adventuring.  It's also how 3 end up with character wealth of 4.  It's also how this spin-off thread started.

RelentlessImp

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #196 on: February 28, 2011, 10:42:26 PM »
Ah, well, in that case, the same reason four strangers who met in a tavern decided to go adventuring in the first place.

Did I ever tell you about the time I beat a Horned Devil by myself.  I'm a monk you know.

"Prove it"

That's how four strangers meet in a tavern and decide to go adventuring.  It's also how 3 end up with character wealth of 4.  It's also how this spin-off thread started.

Well, if it's a Giacomo monk, at least they wind up with that character's wealth in wands that they can use better than the poor schmuck ever could.
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Gods_Trick

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #197 on: February 28, 2011, 11:07:26 PM »

Uhm. Why should it only happen in Evil campaigns? What I'm talking about is something that's pretty much an every day occurrence - both in a medieval society and in modern times. Someone doesn't pull their weight, they get fired. In medieval times, that means the serf gets his ass beaten for not working hard enough, or the peasant's family dies if he doesn't do enough work on the farm and grow enough food. In modern times, it means your ass gets booted out the door with severance pay.


I shan't & can't  :smirk argue with the principles that it wouldn't happen unless you're metagaming, you're correct. But you didn't get fired in medieval times, you could be punished or even killed (rare), but the bonds of hierachic duty didn't work that way, there is no quit option. Much less with 'theoretically' equal in status party members.

But D&D isn't medieval fantasy for just that reason, at higher levels theres no society that has rules for individuals being in charge of Absolute PowerTM. Falling back on human nature, haven't you ever had 'fail' friends that you had to keep helping, but you did so anyway?


Bester

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #198 on: February 28, 2011, 11:19:23 PM »
Everybody loves an underdog.

He's an anthropomorphic riding dog btw.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #199 on: February 28, 2011, 11:25:45 PM »
Everybody loves an underdog.

He's an anthropomorphic riding dog btw.
At least he gets some tail occasionally.

Even if it IS his own.
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