Author Topic: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function  (Read 38965 times)

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oslecamo

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #160 on: February 28, 2011, 08:23:45 PM »
Oslecamo, could you come argue with me about a claim I didn't make?

I was enjoying that more.

Meh, might be the only way to save this thread.

So why the double standard with wildshape? If a druid walks around turned into some freakshow beast 24/7 while using natural spell he's aparently being smart and aparently no DM has problem with it, and the local population has no problem when the glowing dinossaur with oversized claws and teeths walks into the tavern.

However if the stealthy dude turns himself into a necropolitan, or if the warrior dude turns himself into a dragonborn, then the DM will rage and hit them with the banhammer while the population rises pitchforks and torches? WTF? It's clearly an atitude of "noncasters can't have nice things!"

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #161 on: February 28, 2011, 08:26:24 PM »
No, seriously. Sunic, what happened with your life? Because you're falling deeper and deeper and deeper into your fox hole. For some time it was amusing, then pathetic but now it's just sad.
He's not the only party at fault in making this thread bore me now. I know it is related and all, but at some point I just stop caring about midget zombie ninjas on acid or whatever they are talking about.

Sunic, could you stop encouraging Jaron to make vaguely misguided statements? I think we have enough data by now to know when he's being sensible or not. Jaron, could you stop baiting Sunic into attacking you? Midnight, could you reclaim your thread from the stale and festering corpse of a horse here? Oslecamo, could you come argue with me about a claim I didn't make?

I was enjoying that more.

I would like to remind you that it was Jaron who brought the subject up again, not me, by specifically calling me out with no provocation of any kind. I hadn't said anything, at all to him since the last smiting. Then Jarona came in to whine and flail as usual, that being the net sum of its contribution to the boards.
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Talore

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #162 on: February 28, 2011, 08:28:37 PM »
Oslecamo, could you come argue with me about a claim I didn't make?

I was enjoying that more.

Meh, might be the only way to save this thread.

So why the double standard with wildshape? If a druid walks around turned into some freakshow beast 24/7 while using natural spell he's aparently being smart and aparently no DM has problem with it, and the local population has no problem when the glowing bear with oversized claws and teeths walks into the tavern.

However if the stealthy dude turns himself into a necropolitan, or if the warrior dude turns himself into a dragonborn, then the DM will rage and hit them with the banhammer while the population rises pitchforks and torches? WTF? It's clearly an atitude of "noncasters can't have nice things!"
Well, ya know, naive DMs ban Tome of Battle because it's 'overpowered,' but they let casters have 4th level spells and higher.

I asked one why, and he legitimately said "because they kill my monsters too easily, they're better than casters because the casters don't actually kill the creatures, where the ToB guy can kill them in one round.

It's probably the same kind of standard. Sure, a feral half-minotaur half-ogre half-ogre (+2LA) is rare, but they must exist somewhere! So what if I'm an outlander!

~Le sigh
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Midnight_v

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #163 on: February 28, 2011, 08:28:55 PM »
 I for one am glad Sunic is here to deal with Jaronk. Who, while he dresses it up impressively is so full of shit on many levels, I find it intolerable. However... my way of just walking away from him when he posts his giant wall of texts is likely the better way and results in less raging thread closures.
  Which... is where this is going to go I see. It's an opinion thread, doesn't matter what you really say doesn't affect the lives of the others here, I was posting this to see if I was the only one who saw the situation that way. I'd close this thread now if I could if for nothing else than to keep it from devolving any further.
Better to just agree to disagree on these things if we could. Course I never know how people are gonna react when they feel their ego is impinged.
Meh, to each his own.
But HOW does his argument not convince you? I see what he's trying to say and I'm not that smart. What part is wrong? If you just insult him and don't prove your point then you got no sympathy from me. And to this point only Sunic made himself my enemy, even before I registered.
Yes, you can care about my opinion less then about yesterdays shit you took, but that way you just make an ass out of yourself.

Quote
He's not the only party at fault in making this thread bore me now. I know it is related and all, but at some point I just stop caring about midget zombie ninjas on acid or whatever they are talking about.
+1
Quote
Midnight, could you reclaim your thread from the stale and festering corpse of a horse here?
Nah... I think its just over.

Quote
Oslecamo, could you come argue with me about a claim I didn't make?
I was enjoying that more.
 :lol Made of win.
@ Anarchy... I don't want to tell you "I don't care about your opinion" because thats not it, exactly, but I think this is the first time I've noticed you on the boards really. Welcome.
 Uhm... basically, you're going to gather what you gather, but you're coming in late... years late since most of us started on 339. So I find it not worthwhile to discuss things with him at all, because it turns into the same thing you see between him and sunic. It becomes tangential, and I find myself 7 steps away from the point. Even taking the time to talk abou this to you is very far away from what actually wanted to be discussing.  If that makes me an "derogatory remark of your choosing" in your eyes so be it. Debating with "him" specifically doesn't isn't a worthwhile use of my time. I actually already knew how jaronk felt about this you see. Feel free to express your opinon though.
I honestly find template, stacking... to be distasteful the more and more I think about it. It strikes me as the lowest form of optimization. I'm also pretty skeptical of equipment optimization as well when I think about as a rubric to determine the comparative validity of a stratagem.
On some level this:
If, what your optimized build can be emulated by any class, and exist because of race/gear it just seems less eloquent. . .
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RelentlessImp

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #164 on: February 28, 2011, 08:38:39 PM »
Here is the measuring stick with which characters should be measured. Notice how they only expect Rogue level to be playing the same game as Wizards up to level 10. So my question is this:

By what fucking rubric do you expect a level 10+ rogue to be playing the same game as the rest of the party? Sure, most games might not make it to or past level 10, but why do you keep holding up stealthy characters (IE, the rogue archetype) as valid?
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Kajhera

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #165 on: February 28, 2011, 08:45:39 PM »
I am aware, Sunic.

Oslecamo, could you come argue with me about a claim I didn't make?

I was enjoying that more.

Meh, might be the only way to save this thread.

So why the double standard with wildshape? If a druid walks around turned into some freakshow beast 24/7 while using natural spell he's aparently being smart and aparently no DM has problem with it, and the local population has no problem when the glowing dinossaur with oversized claws and teeths walks into the tavern.

However if the stealthy dude turns himself into a necropolitan, or if the warrior dude turns himself into a dragonborn, then the DM will rage and hit them with the banhammer while the population rises pitchforks and torches? WTF? It's clearly an atitude of "noncasters can't have nice things!"

Hm... if you're a sparrow, you're golden. If you're a wolf, pretend you're a dog, or better yet be a dog because they have better stats. If you're a glowing dinosaur, pretend you're the halfling's mount and ... guys don't snicker. If you're a leech... why the heck are you a leech?

Necropolitans have 'hunted as monsters outside their city' as a racial fluff trait, and if everyone everywhere was friendly to my undisguised necropolitan I would feel gypped.

Dragonborns however are 'noble' as a racial fluff trait, and their getting persecuted makes not a ton of sense.

Kajhera

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #166 on: February 28, 2011, 08:52:43 PM »
Oslecamo, could you come argue with me about a claim I didn't make?

I was enjoying that more.

Meh, might be the only way to save this thread.

So why the double standard with wildshape? If a druid walks around turned into some freakshow beast 24/7 while using natural spell he's aparently being smart and aparently no DM has problem with it, and the local population has no problem when the glowing bear with oversized claws and teeths walks into the tavern.

However if the stealthy dude turns himself into a necropolitan, or if the warrior dude turns himself into a dragonborn, then the DM will rage and hit them with the banhammer while the population rises pitchforks and torches? WTF? It's clearly an atitude of "noncasters can't have nice things!"
Well, ya know, naive DMs ban Tome of Battle because it's 'overpowered,' but they let casters have 4th level spells and higher.

I asked one why, and he legitimately said "because they kill my monsters too easily, they're better than casters because the casters don't actually kill the creatures, where the ToB guy can kill them in one round.

It's probably the same kind of standard. Sure, a feral half-minotaur half-ogre half-ogre (+2LA) is rare, but they must exist somewhere! So what if I'm an outlander!

~Le sigh

One of the most misguided people I have the joy of being in a D&D group with took his turn to DM a gestalt 8th-level campaign recently. He had no objection whatsoever to a caster using Dominate to eliminate an encounter in half a round, but he thought it was ridiculous that a chain devil character (using Oslecamo's class I believe) had 15' reach.  :eh

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #167 on: February 28, 2011, 08:55:47 PM »
I would like to remind you that it was Jaron who brought the subject up again, not me, by specifically calling me out with no provocation of any kind. I hadn't said anything, at all to him since the last smiting. Then Jarona came in to whine and flail as usual, that being the net sum of its contribution to the boards.
That... is kinda true. Sorry. :(

@ Midnight
So there's a story behind all that hate? Didn't know. to an onlooker it looks like you just ignore his arguments (which are quite reasonable in my eyes). In that case I'm gonna try to not mingle in other peoples discussions. :(

Here is the measuring stick with which characters should be measured. Notice how they only expect Rogue level to be playing the same game as Wizards up to level 10. So my question is this:

By what fucking rubric do you expect a level 10+ rogue to be playing the same game as the rest of the party? Sure, most games might not make it to or past level 10, but why do you keep holding up stealthy characters (IE, the rogue archetype) as valid?
Casters are better then any other class? That's something new.
As much as some of the people here hate it, this game is about TEAMWORK. And not teamwork as in "You have to be competent and contribute to be a part of this team", but as in "You get my back, I get your back. I'm a powerful Wizard, so I destroy those fools who stand in our way. You take care of these few, who manage to pass by my spells" kind of teamwork.
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Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

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RelentlessImp

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #168 on: February 28, 2011, 08:58:54 PM »
Here is the measuring stick with which characters should be measured. Notice how they only expect Rogue level to be playing the same game as Wizards up to level 10. So my question is this:

By what fucking rubric do you expect a level 10+ rogue to be playing the same game as the rest of the party? Sure, most games might not make it to or past level 10, but why do you keep holding up stealthy characters (IE, the rogue archetype) as valid?
Casters are better then any other class? That's something new.
As much as some of the people here hate it, this game is about TEAMWORK. And not teamwork as in "You have to be competent and contribute to be a part of this team", but as in "You get my back, I get your back. I'm a powerful Wizard, so I destroy those fools who stand in our way. You take care of these few, who manage to pass by my spells" kind of teamwork.

And why not the first definition? If all one person is doing is slaughtering easily-killable mooks that the wizard has to try to avoid disabling just so they have something to do, then can't their role be filled just as well by a summoned creature? Shit, Planar Binding doesn't take that much effort to pull off at a reasonable price if that's all you need someone for.

No, the game is about COOPERATIVE STORYTELLING. And three out of four players are very likely going to want to tell a story in which they ditch the useless member of the party who is only cleaning up mooks.
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oslecamo

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2011, 09:05:35 PM »
Hm... if you're a sparrow, you're golden. If you're a wolf, pretend you're a dog, or better yet be a dog because they have better stats. If you're a glowing dinosaur, pretend you're the halfling's mount and ... guys don't snicker. If you're a leech... why the heck are you a leech?
Would your character really lower itself to using reins?

And if yes, well, just buy some chains for your own exotic character and pretend you're a prisioner of war while in town. People will be a lot less scared if they think you to be imobilized. Then break said chains when needed for extra awesome points!

Necropolitans have 'hunted as monsters outside their city' as a racial fluff trait, and if everyone everywhere was friendly to my undisguised necropolitan I would feel gypped.
Well, the city of Pelor will probably try to burn you at the  stake I'll give you that, but several setings have at least one undead-friendly nation.

And since necropolitan is precisely from Libris Mortis, the heaviest undead book of all, I say there's a significant chance that there'll be an higher ratio of undead-friendly beings out there.

Dragonborns however are 'noble' as a racial fluff trait, and their getting persecuted makes not a ton of sense.
Indeed, specially because like half of the dragons out there are goody two shoes paragons of goodness by the core rules themselves.

No, the game is about COOPERATIVE STORYTELLING. And three out of four players are very likely going to want to tell a story in which they ditch the useless member of the party who is only cleaning up mooks.

And then it's about two of three players ditching the useless memeber of the party who can't cast planar binding for his personal growing army of arcane monsters (aka the druid).

And then it's about one of two players ditching the useless member that hasn't wish-chained himself into unlimited arcane power.

And then there's a single player alone in the room foaming on how he's the Strongest while the DM managed to put some good sense on the three others and starts a new campaign where they aren't competing against each other but against the BBEG.

Unbeliever

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2011, 09:09:26 PM »
I find judging the level of "classes" to be an almost entirely useless enterprise.  Specific builds, yes, classes, no.  I am sure I can make a crappy Druid, provided I pick the wrong spells, feats, etc.  

Is it perhaps difficult to make a Rogue or a Soulknife that can hang w/ a party of well-built psions, psywarriors, wizards, Zhentarim skymages, and what have you?  Sure, but it can and has been done.  I've played whole campaigns (3rd to 15th level, a fair range for assessment, right?) where this was the case.  That, I contend, is kind of the point of Charopp.  

EDIT:  I should qualify the above w/ relevant to the challenges and adventuring things that interesting in a D&D game.  I'm sure wizards can modify the world more than a rogue can (although maybe not ... query what robbing the entire nation's gold supply would do). 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 09:12:15 PM by Unbeliever »

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2011, 09:13:23 PM »
And then it's about two of three players ditching the useless memeber of the party who can't cast planar binding for his personal growing army of arcane monsters (aka the druid).

And then it's about one of two players ditching the useless member that hasn't wish-chained himself into unlimited arcane power.

And then there's a single player alone in the room foaming on how he's the Strongest while the DM managed to put some good sense on the three others and starts a new campaign where they aren't competing against each other but against the BBEG.
+1

What you are talking about, RelentlessImp, is something that should take place only in Evil campaigns or adventures, because then such dick moves are expected. When you're playing the LG Wizard, treating your teammates as cannon fodder, not so much.
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Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

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Kajhera

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2011, 09:14:27 PM »
Sounds like a good plan, those chains.  :p

Completely unrelated to anything, I once played a Vow of Poverty druid without wildshape and gave her mounted combat feats by an agreed-upon exchange of the exalted things for more relevant things.

Being a necropolitan does kinda imply at least one undead-friendly city exists. Though it's more interesting to go fight through persecution at times.

This argument is getting nowhere hostile fast.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2011, 09:17:22 PM »
Specific concepts should be allowed in specific settings/campaigns. For example in Sigil practicly nothing would be out of place. :D
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #174 on: February 28, 2011, 09:18:33 PM »
Specific concepts should be allowed in specific settings/campaigns. For example in Sigil practicly nothing would be out of place. :D
Betcha I could reflavor very nearly any build to fit neatly into nearly any campaign.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
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Kajhera

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #175 on: February 28, 2011, 09:21:13 PM »
Specific concepts should be allowed in specific settings/campaigns. For example in Sigil practicly nothing would be out of place. :D
Betcha I could reflavor very nearly any build to fit neatly into nearly any campaign.
When I wound up using an adaptation of the Ghost template class for a software program...

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #176 on: February 28, 2011, 09:21:39 PM »
Specific concepts should be allowed in specific settings/campaigns. For example in Sigil practicly nothing would be out of place. :D
Betcha I could reflavor very nearly any build to fit neatly into nearly any campaign.
Proof or GTFO. :P
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #177 on: February 28, 2011, 09:22:59 PM »
Specific concepts should be allowed in specific settings/campaigns. For example in Sigil practicly nothing would be out of place. :D
Betcha I could reflavor very nearly any build to fit neatly into nearly any campaign.
Proof or GTFO. :P
Add JellO. There's ALWAYS room for JellO.

Anyway, give an oddball build and the description of a campaign world, and I'll see what I can do.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]


Bester

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Re: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function
« Reply #179 on: February 28, 2011, 09:25:58 PM »
Specific concepts should be allowed in specific settings/campaigns. For example in Sigil practicly nothing would be out of place. :D

Remember that whole you lose con deally from 2nd edition the longer you stay in the city?  That totally killed one of my characters.

Necropolitan doesn't care, he doesn't have a con score.  Also, he and dustmen get along just great.