Author Topic: Is it a problem when a given class/trick/archtype relies on race to function  (Read 38963 times)

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Midnight_v

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 This stems from a Deliberation thread but its an optimization thread, in my opninion really.
In the "Why fighters suck Redux" thread This was said:

Quote from: Oslecamo
Because every time anyone sugests using a template or unusual race for a build, Midnight claims he doesn't want to "play a freakshow".
Quote from: Vekkie
 I think a better way of putting the issue is that people want the capacity to be effective without being a freakshow. So Freakshow-ity is a choice, not a requirement.
In the MONK vs HORNED DEVIL thread:
Quote from: Ithamar
But yeah, either way the devil definitely has the upper hand.  And you aren't really beating the devil as a monk, but as a mini-dragon. *shrug*
Quote from: Solo
I think when people want to see someone beating up someone else "as a monk", they mean relying on the monk's class abilities and features.  
 Now there have been thread where I've been argued with abusrdest statments like I personally hate: Fighters/Rogue... whatever class or abiilty that requires a specific race to function.
 I hope I'm not misquoting but I specifically rember jaronk arguing soemthing like that in the purpose of stealth thread.

So here's the deal. What should the role of race be in optimization be. At what point is it over the edge when it comes to valid building?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 01:13:28 AM by Midnight_v »
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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: What Role should Race play in optimization?
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 04:39:40 PM »
When you think about a build and THEN search the BEST race for it.
But I confess, sometimes I do that myself. :(
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CantripN

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Re: What Role should Race play in optimization?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 04:40:42 PM »
It's an important part of it, not only for the fluff, but for unique abilities. A Dragonwrought Kobold, a Tome Dragon, or a Steel Dragon Sorcerer is a better Sorcerer than any other, because they just do it better as a race.

An Elan or a Kalashtar make amazing Psions, because they get special racial stuff that help, such as the Elan's Resiliance, and the Kalashtar's Implanted Shards...

In short, yes, race matters. A lot.

And sometimes, as with the Sharn, Race is all that matters.
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Re: What Role should Race play in optimization?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 04:43:57 PM »
I think it depends on the build, some builds use race to enhance their class abilities, while others use classes to enhance their racial abilities.

Midnight_v

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Re: What Role should Race play in optimization?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 04:52:55 PM »
  So the only time that this type of optimization runs into fault is when someone's trying to justify
a class. Using an etherguant monk as a reason that the monk class can work is a problem.
  At what point is it "All that matters"... Dragonborn with wings, breath feats/meta breath feats.
Can indeed be a commoner. Thats what I'm looking for, at what point is a situation developed
in which the race is the only thing mattering about a build.
 Recongnizing that a human anything is fairly valid, is a big difference between havning to be a Whispergnome/Template/template.
I'm not sure where dragonwroght falls into that, dynamic, to be honest.
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Re: What Role should Race play in optimization?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 05:23:27 PM »
Basically, in my opinion, a game role or a class isn't viable unless you can make it work on a nonmodified human. This is one of the reasons I am against scouts, really. They basically have to be undead, almost certainly have to be incorporeal, etc. Or then they just lose. Single builds that abuse races and so on are fine, I've nothing against them, but when it becomes the standard, or even worse, a requirement, it's a problem.

This is also the reason why I rarely allow LA buyoff. If it is allowed, there is no reason not to use it, and race is very integral part of your character. Sure, you could throw on some templates, but it's still.. Iffy. What if I want to be a normal human, instead of spellwarped one? I'm just fucked? No thanks.

Using templates as a justification is also pretty much same as using UMD as a justification. Even a commoner can take UMD as a cross-class skill, and then beat encounter X without even trying. All he needed was the UMD. That still says nothing about how viable commoners are. And that character really isn't playing as a commoner, his identity really isn't "commoner". It's "the guy with trinkets". Likewise, Monk 1 Ambush Drake at ECL 8 isn't really a "monk", it's a "dragon". If that thing can beat X, it doesn't mean monks can beat X. It means that dragons can beat X, if you know what I mean?

oslecamo

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Re: What Role should Race play in optimization?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 06:02:05 PM »
Basically, in my opinion, a game role or a class isn't viable unless you can make it work on a nonmodified human. This is one of the reasons I am against scouts, really. They basically have to be undead, almost certainly have to be incorporeal, etc. Or then they just lose. Single builds that abuse races and so on are fine, I've nothing against them, but when it becomes the standard, or even worse, a requirement, it's a problem.

Let me ask you, how much water orc wizards you see? Or ogre wizards? Or maug wizards?

Human is great for casters because it gives them an extra feat for cheesy metamagic, has no mental penalties and no LA. Actually very few races are better than human for a wizard. Races with any kind of LA/RHD or Int penalties are just a no-no for a wizard. They however can be great for other builds.

So for me race is just another choice for your character. Just like the wizard doesn't pick water orc and sets his own Int score on fire. But for a melee dude the extra Str and Con are quite handy, and he really doesn't care that much about the lost mental stats.

Similarly, a wizard picks and prepares the best spells he can find, despite most spells printed being kinda crappy. And probably equips himself in a good way as well, despite there being a lot of bad equipment out there.

So elucidate me, why should humans be the standard for everybody? They're good for casters yes, actually one of the best caster races out there, but that doesn't mean they're good for everybody. If the caster is allowed to pick a race that suits him, why shouldn't other classes pick the races that better suit them?

Using templates as a justification is also pretty much same as using UMD as a justification. Even a commoner can take UMD as a cross-class skill, and then beat encounter X without even trying. All he needed was the UMD. That still says nothing about how viable commoners are.
Except that for a wizard, UMD is a good idea as well. Templates/RHD? Not so much.


Midnight_v

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Re: What Role should Race play in optimization?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2011, 06:12:47 PM »
Quote
So elucidate me, why should humans be the standard for everybody?
Only if you agree to explain how being a Dragonborn using breath/metabreath feats. Has anything to do
with the abilities of the fighter class.
 You greatly misrepresented me in the other thread. The only problem with you use is when you try to justify
things that have nothing to do with race by choosing to "optimize" the race.
Being a sharn monk, is valid.  Does that mean being a monk is valid?
Whats the truth of that statment?
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oslecamo

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Re: What Role should Race play in optimization?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2011, 06:37:06 PM »
Quote
So elucidate me, why should humans be the standard for everybody?
Only if you agree to explain how being a Dragonborn using breath/metabreath feats. Has anything to do
with the abilities of the fighter class.
Well first if you were a human and become a dragonborn, you lose your bonus feat. And then picking metabreath feats is even more taxing in the precious few you have. The fighter class offers, dun-dun-dun, extra feats, allowing you to make up for the all the feats you lost being a dragonborn with metabreath feats.

Then metabreaths allow for the fighter to slow down enemies so he can get to them and stab them easier. It has synergy, thus making it a perfectly viable optimization choice. Do you need any other justification for being a dragonborn fighter?

Unless you claim the fighter now is only allowed to pick stuff that has "fighter" written on it? Well, the basic elf has wizard as favoured class, but they make actually pretty bad wizards.

You greatly misrepresented me in the other thread. The only problem with you use is when you try to justify
things that have nothing to do with race by choosing to "optimize" the race.
Being a sharn monk, is valid.  Does that mean being a monk is valid?
Whats the truth of that statment?

Being a sharn-anything is valid. Being a maug-anything is valid?

No. Casters don't want to be maugs. But they offer lots of goodies for noncasters who want to be in the frontlines.

There's a diference between "good for every class" and "good for some classes". If fighters can't pick maug, who will? You're now  denying nice things for noncasters just because they happen to don't be nice things for casters.

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Re: What Role should Race play in optimization?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2011, 07:09:32 PM »
I disagree with the thread Title.

What Role does Race play in optimization?
... works better for the CO-board in general.
It might not work better on some specifics, though.
You can roleplay up.
You can rollplay down, and still be able to roleplay up.

Race Any! / Monk 1+
is quite a bit different than
Race (short list of books) / Monk 1+
is quite a bit different than
Races (core only and LA+0 only) / Monk 1+



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Unbeliever

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Re: What Role should Race play in optimization?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2011, 07:41:27 PM »
I kind of have to agree w/ Awaken DM Golem here.  There seems to be a disconnect between the subject of the thread and the OP. 

This thread seems to ask a more particular question, which I would paraphrase as:  "how much of a problem is it that a given class/feat/archetype relies on a particular race or set of races to make it work?" 

To this question, I have two answers:

(1)  From a player or character-building perspective, I'd say it's fine.  Race, as others here have already observed, is a character creation choice you get to make, and you should feel free to pick one that helps enable your concept, has synergy, etc.  Some classes and concepts, by their nature or the fact that every splatbook gave them 10-500 new options, will have this easier and be less required, others won't.  So, if scouting requires you be an undead or a tiny race or whatever, then go ahead. 

In this regard, I'd distinguish between the case of the undead pixie scout and the ethergaunt monk.  In the former case, the race is adding to the scout idea and mechanics.  In the latter, I presume, the monk aspect is entirely superfluous.  It could be replaced by almost literally anything. 

(2)  From a system-design standpoint I think this is quite bad.  To the extent that a certain mechanic encourages or requires certain racial choices -- e.g., all elves have to be wizards (Pathfinder), all scouts have to be undead -- I think it's a failing of the system and indicates to me that something should be modified at my table.  Some things I'm willing to tolerate -- I imagine Frost Giants are not notoriously sneaky -- but any deterministic mapping from concept to race and vice-versa is something that, if it comes to my attention, I house rule away. 

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Re: What Role should Race play in optimization?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2011, 01:09:22 AM »
Let me ask you, how much water orc wizards you see? Or ogre wizards? Or maug wizards?

....

So for me race is just another choice for your character. Just like the wizard doesn't pick water orc and sets his own Int score on fire.
In a Western Marches game, I'm actually playing a perfectly logical Water Orc Battle Sorcerer that crushes his enemies before him and hears the laments of their women. Water orcs are strong, and value strength. Magic can make you stronger. Did I mention that he's easily the most powerful character in a group of 5 sorcerers, 2 wizards, 2 druids, a ranger, a monk, and a cleric? His race, while not actually benefiting him all that much, does help him as a character. Let me describe the sorcerers in this party. The first four of these actually joined as a group, and together tried to make a self-sufficient balanced party of their own so that splitting the party would be easy.

Nael Remmington: Human sorcerer, stated goal: "Learn about the Eastern lands." Likes blowing shit up. High mental stats, low physical stats. Other quirks: he thinks he's a wizard, so he carries a spellbook even though he doesn't need it.

Finny Waymottin: Gnome sorceress, stated goal: "Become more powerful." Her favorite tactic is to disable enemies and then nuke them. High mental stats, low physical stats. Other quirks: she doesn't mind murder.

Corina Chillblood: Human sorceress, stated goal: "Learn about higher magic." Every single spell they know is a buff or utility spell. High mental stats, very low physical stats. Other quirks: Is from a society that doesn't care about clothing. Also, they're from nobility.

Arrus: Halfling Sorcerer, stated goal: "I want to see the world." They like dealing lots of direct damage. Every stat is a dump stat except for Dexterity and Charisma. Unlike the others, they actually sneak around and such.

Maelrigar Desraktu: Water Orc Battle Sorcerer, stated goal: "I want to find the fire elemental that attacked my tribe and tear it asunder using my awesome power." Maelrigar is my character, and in battle he charges in headfirst, greatsword leading the way. His strength and constitution are through the roof, and he only keeps enough base charisma to cast the highest level spells he can cast. To circumvent the low save DCs, he only uses spells that don't require saves. Orb spells, buff spells such as Fist of Stone, and Whirling Blade are some of the most used. He fights better than the fighter, his spell damage is more consistent than the others, and he can actually pull his own weight.

My DM just glanced at Maelrigar's sheet, nodded, and sighed to himself, quietly muttering "another damn sorcerer?". When he made a pillar fall towards the squishy members of the party, you can bet he was surprised when I asked if I could dive at the pillar and knock it out of the way. He was also surprised when at level 3, Maelrigar fought a CR 6 giant cave spider to the death, using only one spell. Using Whirling Blade to slay 12 enemies at once in a hallway was pretty memorable too.

Forgive my tangential anecdote, but what I'm trying to say here is that an 'odd' race can make a character much more interesting. Whereas the other 4 sorcerers are just, "meh, I like to cast spells and learn", my character has some flavor. Maelrigar is a Water Orc, thus, he dislikes creatures of the plane of fire, as they are continually at war. Cue him worshiping an ocean god and using mainly lightning, water, and strength based spells. The Water Orc theme goes really well with a Gish, I must say.

Bloody Initiate

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@Barbarossa:

I think you missed the point of the post you quoted.

The post you quoted suggested Water Orc wizards were rare.

You then regaled us with tales of your Water Orc sorcerer.

Wizards are an intelligence-dependent class.

Sorcerers are a charisma-dependent class.

Do you see where you skipped a step?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 05:35:47 AM by Bloody Initiate »
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Amadi

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@Oslecamo:

I don't mind someone taking something like Water Orc. I mind people having to take those, and not being able to play "standard", say a human fighter. What if I want to play a grizzled war-veteran, a middle-aged human fighter? The system basically tends me to bend over and die. Other races are fine as options, but they should be just that. Options. Being of a weird mixmatch race born of eight kraken mothers shouldn't be the standard for fighters. Human Fighter should be viable and a reliable choice. So should Elf Fighter. Dwarves in general should be a reasonable choice for at least something.

Not to mention the dozens of issues players are going to face for just having a Water Orc in their party. First of all, just about all elf NPCs will be starting somewhere around hostile. Most other NPCs will just be unfriendly. Hell, it'll probably take the party two sessions just to explain why they are working together at all, instead of killing each other on sight. Don't even get me started on the weirder templates, when a Mineral Warrior Mongrelfolk walks into a city, half of the peasants will be throwing stones already.

Basically, D&D is still an RPG, and the weirdo races have issues with suspension of disbelief, especially considering that half of the fighters ever are half-dragons. And this degrades the whole monster races quickly. Actually, to the point, where if I see a human fighter, I am fairly surprised.

It's annoying both as a DM and as a player, playing fighter or not. I don't necessarily want all my players to be weird things with eight arms and three sets of wings, nor do I want to play one myself. I shouldn't have to do that to be viable.

Barbarossa

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Do you see where you skipped a step?
You do know that water orcs get -2 to both of these stats, yes? Plus -2 to wisdom?

@Amadi - The only human fighter I've ever seen in a campaign was one made for a very low level arena campaign. If a player wants to play a human in my campaign while the other players are silly things like Half-Ethergaunt Sorcerers and Wereunicorn/dragon hybrids, I would probably give them some bonuses just to keep things fair. On the other hand, I could just portray the peasantry realistically and have them throw rocks at the horrible beasts he travels with.

Kajhera

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The archetype of, say, being a dragon, should probably generally rely on race to function.

The archetype of being a grizzled veteran warrior should work regardless of race, considering most any race might reasonably have grizzled veteran warriors.

Generally speaking I would presume that if a class needs you to grab a race outside the player's handbook + sourcebook the class is in to be functional (given foes from core and the sourcebook the class is in), it's probably not working as intended.

However, if these races make otherwise unworkable concepts somewhat viable, more power to the race.

Humans are honestly often the best options short of dragonwrought kobolds, and as someone who likes monstrous characters greatly, I appreciate a fun race that is a viable alternative to humans. I don't have the issue with having to be a freakshow as much as I have an issue with not being able to be a perfectly normal monstrous character like, say, an imp, gnoll, or gold dragon without great sacrifice. (My thanks to Oslecamo for helping overcome that difficulty.)

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Reincarnation can destroy the wrong build.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Kajhera

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Reincarnation can destroy the wrong build.

...Might be rather interesting for a dragonwrought kobold, though.

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Reincarnation can destroy the wrong build.
Actually, it can destroy just about anything BUT wrong builds. :P
I mean, theres a point where it can't get any worse by being randomised.
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Kajhera

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Reincarnation can destroy the wrong build.

...Might be rather interesting for a dragonwrought kobold, though.

Wait, holy crap. Is there seriously a possibility to get reincarnated into a form with DR 5/magic, SR 19, casting as a 5th-level sorcerer, +20 strength, +10 constitution, 18 natural armor, 150' fly speed, Huge size, a 10d10 breath weapon, Frightful Presence, and some random spell-like ability for these guys? Among other dragony possibilities?