Author Topic: PC death, and GM frustration  (Read 5671 times)

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Iskajir

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PC death, and GM frustration
« on: February 24, 2011, 09:14:21 AM »
PC's die. It sucks. It happens. Oh well.

In my last 3 sessions, I've had 3 PC deaths, and 4 other incidents where the PC's HP went well into the negative.

At this point, I wonder what I am doing wrong. Honestly, I'm at a loss. Would love any ideas. Mechanically, the monsters are using simple tactics, CR appropriate, maybe even low-ish. Party is ECL 7-8, two PC's have the Leadership feat. Most encounters in the 7-8 CR range are taxing. CR 5-6 lets them get some confidence, here and there, but feels contrived on my part. Boss battles "nerfed" to 9 from my inclination to go Avg ECL +2-3 for boss battles.

The players are all 25-35, experienced roleplayers, familiar with d20/3.5, very engaged with the game world, excited about game day, and friends with each other. PC's are at varying levels of optimization, although I've encouraged more effective choices, been very permissive with options and re-training, etc.

Example encounter of suck:
[spoiler]PC's learn of secret ritual to someone powerful outsider. Ritual is to occur at night, on new moon, on top of a steep, inhospitable hill covered in thorns and briars, several hours trek through heavy undergrowth from the nearest road, though there may be game trails, etc. 

Several days ahead of anticipated ritual they make a trek down road in daylight, stand on cart road, stare up at hill.  I described the thick undergrowth as forbiddingly as I could. Gave them accurate distances. They  nodded, strategized, and did other things for two days. They turn around and do other things for two days.

The day of the new moon was rainy, bleak, and heavily clouded, and they arrived at the point of stepping off the road. They had no plan to navigate the dense undergrowth, so the trudged miserably for hours through a wet wood, arriving at the foot of a briar covered hill with under an hour before midnight. Already there is a faint green glow from the top. They decide to scout it. The paladin (finally!) summons her flying mount, leaps astride with a loud clank of full plate, onto the gaudily-barded beast, and they wobble into the air.

The hill is about 600' of horizontal distance to the top, but steeply sloped, and covered in thicker, thornier briars than what they have traversed thus far. The players awaiting news at the bottom begin an intense trigonometric discussion of optimal flight angles up the hill. They clearly understand the set-up.

Meanwhile, they shiny, loud, obvious full-plate-covered paladin, flies up the hill, and sees at the peak a flat, cleared area. Drawn on the ground is a complex seven-pointed star diagram, which glows an eerie green. Seven robed figures are chanting. A few glance up at the paladin, but the chanting intensifies, as does the green, pulsing glow beneath them. The paladin strafes a few times. The wind becomes intense. Chanting rises. The paladin is unable to guess from her observations which cultist might be the leader. So.... she guesses. 1 in 7 chance. She shoots a few times from moving griffon-back, with an unenchanted short bow into heavy winds. Rolls utter suck. Flies down hill, shouts over wind to companions, and returns to the calling ritual. The rest of party buffs for about 3-4 rounds.

By this point the aspect of the evil god is summoned, only six cultists are apparent, and the paladin begins strafing and firing arrows. Long story short, paladin and mount are taken out quickly by NPC adepts (only 1 of which gets injured), with one attack from the CR 7 (8? can't remember) BBEG.

Rest of party has split up. Summoning circle fades to a dull (candle-equivalent) glow. The Malconvoker and the cohort Wizard arrive first, both human, and carrying bright light sources. Wizard spams fireball on visible cultists. Hidden 7th cultist (with character levels, CR 6, if I recall right), takes out wizard in 1 round. Malconvoker summons a pair of celestial creatures with awesome well-chosen SLA's, and drops black tentacles onto 4 of the 6 NPC cultists. In 2 rounds, summons manage to Dismiss the "god". Meanwhile, the cultist leader has snuck around, takes down the Malconvoker, and begins to mop up the summons.

This is when the bulk of the party arrive: Full-plate fighter 8 (Capt. America clone), Binder with the summon-full-plate vestige, heavy armor cleric cohort, and medium-armor barbarian finally tromp onto the scene. They mop up, taking out the lead cultist, but letting two of the NPC's escape. Because they can't run fast enough to catch them.
 :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead


Rest of the session is spent dealing with death, and excited in and out of character discussions re: plot developments, including information let slip by the cultist leader as she coup-de-grace'd the Malconvoker. Once the Malconvoker is up and moving, they are actively engaged with plot developments that his new, hard-won info brings.
[/spoiler]

After this mess, I gave opportunities to shop, pay death tax (even so, party is a tad above WBL), suggested re-training since they could see obvious "holes" in party strategy. The subsequent two sessions have not gone much better.

I have been running D&D since middle school (3.5 since about '04, maybe), and never had to coddle this much just to prevent TPK. What gives??



The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 09:59:40 AM »
They split the party.
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LordBlades

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 10:03:51 AM »
To me it seems just that your players are poor tacticians. By your description, they never tried to work together (paladin went alone, wizard went with his cohort,  and then the rest).

Also they made surprising little use of both scouting means (wizard has Arcane Eye and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance) and mobility options (Dimenison Door, maybe buy a scroll of Teleport). It's just that they're not familiar with such spells, or it never occurred to them that such tactics are solid?

They had all the means to defeat the encounter at their disposal (for example :buy a scroll of Teleport, hide someplace nearby, wizard casts Arcane Eye and scouts the place, everybody buffs with all they got, wizard teleports everyone in) so it's not that you did anything wrong IMHO.

veekie

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 10:17:27 AM »
Well, it all went dramatically downhill from the point they split the party to attack in a haphazard manner, so the cultists could freely focus fire. Can't say thats much of a brilliant plan, especially taking random potshots at them while scouting without a solid chance to hit and remove someone.

Hell, I wonder why they didn't think to setup an ambush before the given hour, considering they knew the place's existence days ahead of time, knowing the hour of the ritual and could conceivably have snuck up there ahead of time to remove cultists before they can well, summon the god. Now, this may be my inner pyromaniac speaking, but I'd have littered the hilltop with hidden flasks of oil and tinder(dirt cheap), then having the whole place catch on fire under the cultists mid ritual.
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It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Sunic_Flames

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 10:23:30 AM »
They split the party.

Yup, that's why they died.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Iskajir

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 10:55:19 AM »
Quote
They split the party.

I said this, out loud, incredulously, several times. But even "together" they can't work cohesively. Or anything like it.

Quote
your players are poor tacticians
Quote
It's just that they're not familiar with such spells, or it never occurred to them that such tactics are solid?

Quote
Hell, I wonder why they didn't think to setup an ambush before the given hour, considering they knew the place's existence days ahead of time, knowing the hour of the ritual and could conceivably have snuck up there ahead of time to remove cultists before they can well, summon the god.

I do too. My plan was for them to overhear the talk before the ritual. Get plot info. Have easy-ish encounter with cultists. Expend resources, continue a solid evening of plot-progressing encounters before a big reveal, and "real" boss battle. Much revision was needed on my part. Not the good, fun kind either.

Not in the past. Of the five players, I've run games with four of them before. Two of them are very solid tacticians. One is straight-forward and a bit simplistic. One of them is a Ray vis-a-vis Ghostbusters. ("Get her??? that was you plan?") Builds, roughly as below, give or take a level. Away from game notes right now.

[spoiler]Archivist5/Malconvoker 2- New-to-me but experienced player. Strong character building. Solid personal strategy. Player is not socially adept oog, so if other players aren't cooperative to his tactics, he'll go it on his own, unless they come up with an alternate plan of some sort. In absence of a better plan than "Get her!" he'll usually do his own thing pretty well.

Fighter 8- Capt America clone. Not the sharpest tool, but cooperative and capable if someone else does the planning.

Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 5/Horizon Walker1/Half-Orc Paragon 1- Another competent meleer. Player is a competent tactician, but not a leader at the table. Cohort is Transmuter5/Fatspinner 1, banned enchant and necro.

Rogue 7 (formerly Paladin 8)- zerg rush or sneak-and-shiv are the full extent of tactics here. She was ecstatic for days at her PC's perfectly heroic demise, and how it suited her backstory, etc.

Binder 6/KotSS 2- party "leader". The voice of the coordinated attack, planning, etc. Cohort is Cloistered Cleric 6.

[/spoiler]

I feel I need to point out that they all LOVE the game, the setting, their characters, etc. I am the only one whose fun meter is not kicked to 11, and I'm afraid that's going to show soon.

With this much group, my standard encounter is CR is ECL -1 to +0. My "deadly" boss battles are CR +1 - +2. What are my choices:
  • Nerf Lower? I doubt they'd complain.
  • Ease up on tactics? From the encounter I described above, I'm not sure where to go. Even INT 2 wolves will flank and trip.
  • Lower my expectations?
  • Tailor treasure hordes to lead by the nose to better tactics?

veekie

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 11:01:07 AM »
I think throwing stuff they can survive even with the kind of screwups they make is probably best. If it's a bunch of under CR mooks in two to three waves, so be it. I mean you could hardly ease up on the tactics when they would have done better by simply charging in en masse and trying to lead them to better tactics by giving them tactically useful loot wouldn't help much if they can't even realise what its for.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

genuine

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2011, 11:05:58 AM »
Part of the problem (aside from tactics) is power level of the characters. None of the players appear particularly optimized, but by level 8 the disparity between a melee PC and a melee monster is quite clear. Mr. Captain America is going to get stomped on by most comparable-CR monsters he faces. Mr. Death-wish Rogue and Heavy-Plate Binder aren't going to do much better. The Malconvoker is probably useful, but given that he spammed fireball instead of solid fog makes me wonder about him as well.

You might want to encourage more Battle-field control tactics. Perhaps give out a few wands with actually useful spells built in?

veekie

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2011, 11:12:06 AM »
From the sound of it though, power level shouldn't be a problem(come on, it's a bunch of low level adepts who're not prepared for the occasion), but I'll be damned if any character not optimized sufficiently to slaughter them all in the opening round would have handled their tactics well.

Besides, it sounds like they have some semi-optimal characters and individual tactics, they're just ass at groupwork.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Sunic_Flames

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2011, 11:26:50 AM »
Thing about wands is that they are low DC. Anyways, you're already easymoding them. My recommendation is to stop it. Yes, really. Give them normal encounters. After the shock wears off, they'll adapt (and play better) or die (and the slaughter will continue until play improves).
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Gods_Trick

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2011, 11:38:10 AM »

Sounds like you have one tactician but no strategicians. Not having a way to get the party to the encounter site is criminal.  :rollseyes Okay, maybe just negligent, but that lapse caused those PC deaths.

Really not sure what to do though. You can take Sunics advise, by I find doing that just frustrates players. You can't graft strategy by means TPKs. Sit down and tell them that the fight could have gone better if they used certain spells. See how they digest that.

genuine

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2011, 02:45:36 PM »

Sounds like you have one tactician but no strategicians. Not having a way to get the party to the encounter site is criminal.  :rollseyes Okay, maybe just negligent, but that lapse caused those PC deaths.

Really not sure what to do though. You can take Sunics advise, by I find doing that just frustrates players. You can't graft strategy by means TPKs. Sit down and tell them that the fight could have gone better if they used certain spells. See how they digest that.

I don't know about that. One of my really huge pet peeves is a DM telling me after the fact that 'X was the solution.' 'You should have taken the amulet off the lich - that was the key to the door.' 'If you had just been willing to take the NPC George along, the bandits would have let you into their base without a fight.' It's annoying - the fun of the game is figuring out your own solution.

The real problem here is that your players are all having a lot of fun, but you aren't. Any chance of convincing one of them to take over?

veekie

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2011, 02:55:05 PM »
I'd agree that telling them what would have solved the encounter is usually deflating(unless they beat it anyway and you chat about how it could have gone in the wrap up, I find they rather like to hear how it COULD have screwed them over but didn't).
This isn't that extreme yet though, the players' main issue is fighting as individuals, not a team. Lack of prepwork might be a factor, but lots of groups are like that with the fools rush in option.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

genuine

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2011, 10:44:26 PM »
...I find they rather like to hear how it COULD have screwed them over but didn't).
...

Not sure why I didn't consider that. Yeah, after a tough encounter that should have been easy, explain exactly what you feel like you should have done. Should have killed the paladin's horse out from under him, spread out the mooks, etc.

Then, on the next encounter when they repeat their silly errors you do exactly what you told them you were going to do on the last encounter.

veekie

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2011, 10:53:39 PM »
Well, it helps to be a wee bit subtle about it(my lot has freak luck so its usually "goddamn dem dice"), but the gist is that yes. Focus more on what they did right(whether by luck or not), and how it made the fight easier rather than what you could have pulled out to sodomise them with though.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

SneeR

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2011, 12:45:23 AM »
I have never participated in a campaign where the players were so acutely unphased by PC death that they didn't even attempt to change their tactics.

I think this may be a situation of pigs rolling in the mud. You may think, "Why are you rolling in mud? There are better way to get cool!" But you have to consider that the pigs are happy rolling in their mud. If you take away their mud, they are forced to come up with a way to keep cool when they were perfectly happy with mud. They may even make more mud.
Just leave them be and try not to touch them. Mud is a pain to wash when it gets crusty.

Metaphor has devolved...

Maybe tell Captain America there that he should multi-class soon, but making the game survivable is up to the DM, not the PCs, in my opinion. I wouldn't decrease the difficulty, just make sure you maybe ask the PCs if they want to do things.
For instance:

When they were at the hill ahead of time, they did their thing and decided to leave. Right as they were leaving, you could have said, "Are you guys sure you want to leave? Do you want to maybe lay some traps?" In town before they go to the hill again: "Do you guys want to get a way to get through the woods?" When the paladin was taking potshots instead of meeting up with his party: "Are you sure you want to attract enemy fire on your own?" When the malkonvoker rushed ahead: "Are you sure you want to split up with the party? It could be dangerous without support."

This is called the second chance theory. When the DM repeats what the player is going to do back to them and asks if they are sure they want to do it, it makes 2 things happen in the player's mind:
1) They are forced to think about what you just said and possibly see the flaws in their plans.
2) Players subconsciously think the DM is right. If he questions them, they must be doing something wrong, right?

They may begin to alter their tactics if you do this enough.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2011, 12:53:00 AM »
Most of that is correct but
Quote
Players subconsciously think the DM is right. If he questions them, they must be doing something wrong, right?
Odds are they'd go shooting off on a different tangent entirely.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Gods_Trick

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2011, 03:47:23 AM »

If you mention what could have screwed them over, won't it sound like it could have happened but you were plot protected?

I have never participated in a campaign where the players were so acutely unphased by PC death that they didn't even attempt to change their tactics.


I have *shudders*, But even in the good cases where they don't just put numerals next to their sheets or ragequit, a conceptual leap is hard thing sometimes. I find their tactics get more and more timid, because they don't make the connection WHY their PC's died. A hint helped that group a lot. The casters hadn't even thought about utility effects, went straight for fireball. Half my white hairs come from that group  :rollseyes

SneeR

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Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2011, 03:56:43 AM »
Half my white hairs come from that group  :rollseyes

How many white hairs do you have? Because that sounds major, dude.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

Gods_Trick

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 787
Re: PC death, and GM frustration
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2011, 04:05:46 AM »
Half my white hairs come from that group  :rollseyes

How many white hairs do you have? Because that sounds major, dude.

I am a genteel old gentleman  ;) But this group, despite being dear friends in RL, they Kicked the Dog and hated, just hated anything resembling logic. I gave them an Evil Campaign to get it out their system, and decided to play freak show The Hills Have Eyes ... carnies  :bigeye

They broke me after that one.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 04:08:20 AM by Gods_Trick »