Author Topic: High level campaigns  (Read 9211 times)

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Carnap

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2011, 04:01:37 PM »
@SneeR

It matters what they meet. Generally, if they meet pseudocasters or monsters without access to high level magic (as dragon with the Wyrm of War archetype) they would do fine. On the other hand, if they have an encounter with real caster it could be a painful one. So you have to be careful with core magic and restrain NPCs to obscure magic systems, which are rather weaker than vancian magic.

@Anarchy_Kanya

Why you keep attacking Sunic instead of saying anything useful on your own? There is nothing bad in being of someone, but you should have strong argument to support your opinions. You are constantly derailing topics, because of your strange passion for smashing Sunic in very childish way. Be more constrictive and less aggressive.

@Solo
You know who else liked greasy jokes? Hitler. ;)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 04:13:51 PM by Carnap »

Solo

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2011, 04:10:40 PM »
In bed!

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Pimpforged

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2011, 04:13:18 PM »

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2011, 04:17:22 PM »
@ SneeRI am whining and flailing about Sunic randomly again.

Hi Welcome
Did I hear something? *ignore troll spell still activated* Eh, must be my imagination.

Quote
@Anarchy_Kanya

Why you keep attacking Sunic instead of saying anything useful on your own? There is nothing bad in being of someone, but you should have strong argument to support your opinions. You are constantly derailing topics, because of your strange passion for smashing Sunic in very childish way. Be more constrictive and less aggressive.
Oh. So Sunics lies are a constructive help to SneeR? Because I only see him telling SneeR "Fuck them. Let them die. They learn or will be dying". That's not very helpful in my opinion.

Okay. On topic.
It depends. One class is good at one thing and another at other thing. If you're GMing for non-caster team, then you have to watch out to not let them fight monsters that are hard or impossible to beat without a caster. If they're fighting casters, then you must play them in a way so they wont use their full power. The Wizard can have ultra powerful spells BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE TO. Casters are as prone to making mistakes as any other class. High Int doesn't make a Wizard omnipotent or perfect. Example - Evocation school sucks, right? But what if the caster just likes fireballs, eh? The enemies aren't machines (maybe except warforged and constructs :D), they feel and have their desires and likes.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 04:21:25 PM by Anarchy_Kanya »
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Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

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Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
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Carnap

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2011, 04:22:56 PM »
Oh. So Sunics lies are a constructive help to SneeR? Because I only see him telling SneeR "Fuck them. Let them die. They learn or will be dying". That's not very helpful in my opinion.
'Lie' is quite a big word, isn't it? I would use it very cautiously.

Okay. On topic.
It depends. One class is good at one thing and another at other thing. If they're fighting casters, then you must play them in a way so they wont use their full power. The Wizard can have ultra powerful spells BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE TO. Casters are as prone to making mistakes as any other class. High Int doesn't make a Wizard omnipotent or perfect. Example - Evocation school sucks, right? But what if the caster just likes fireballs, eh?
Yeah, blasty wizards are good solution. But have to be careful in choosing spells, because some of them are quite unpredictably strong. And high Int doesn't make wizard omnipotent, but Foresight or other divinations make them nearly omniscient ;)

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2011, 04:33:30 PM »
Oh. So Sunics lies are a constructive help to SneeR? Because I only see him telling SneeR "Fuck them. Let them die. They learn or will be dying". That's not very helpful in my opinion.
'Lie' is quite a big word, isn't it? I would use it very cautiously.
Why? Sunic's using it constantly.
Okay. Lets make it "nonsense". :) I mean, it may work fine in HIS games but not everyone is a jerk like him.

Quote
Okay. On topic.
It depends. One class is good at one thing and another at other thing. If they're fighting casters, then you must play them in a way so they wont use their full power. The Wizard can have ultra powerful spells BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE TO. Casters are as prone to making mistakes as any other class. High Int doesn't make a Wizard omnipotent or perfect. Example - Evocation school sucks, right? But what if the caster just likes fireballs, eh?
Yeah, blasty wizards are good solution. But have to be careful in choosing spells, because some of them are quite unpredictably strong. And high Int doesn't make wizard omnipotent, but Foresight or other divinations make them nearly omniscient ;)
The blaster caster was just an example. I'm just saying that a caster doesn't always have to choose the right spells. an optimizer who is fixated on "winning" the game might ALWAYS take the best spells but an NPC enemy caster doesn't. Especially when the GM knows his players characters stats (I assume that GMs can look into their players char. sheets - where I'm coming from it's normal). It's hard to not choose JUST THE RIGHT SPELL, when you know that one PC is vulnerable to it. ;)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 04:36:37 PM by Anarchy_Kanya »
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[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
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Carnap

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2011, 04:37:57 PM »
Why? Sunic's using it constantly.
You don't have to follow in his footsteps ;)

Okay. Lets make it "nonsense". :)
Brilliant! :)

The blaster caster was just an example. I'm just saying that a caster doesn't always have to choose the right spells. an optimizer who is fixated on "winning" the game might ALWAYS take the best spells but an NPC enemy caster doesn't. Especially when the GM knows his players characters stats (I assume that GMs can look into their players char. sheets - where I'm coming from it's normal).
Yes, I got your point, I want just to make clear that some spells could be tricky in use and cause unplanned PC death (even stupidly simple spells as unluck).

Pimpforged

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2011, 04:40:05 PM »
Oh. So Sunics lies are a constructive help to SneeR? Because I only see him telling SneeR "Fuck them. Let them die. They learn or will be dying". That's not very helpful in my opinion.
'Lie' is quite a big word, isn't it? I would use it very cautiously.

I agree, I don't think Sunic lies, he just views everything as very black and white and has a very heavy-handed approach towards correcting what he considers to be wrong.

 :backtotopic
@SneeR:
In my experience tier 3-4 characters with a decent amount of optimization can survive fairly well at mid-high levels, just don't expect them to perform at the same level as a tier 1-2 character. I would recommend having them fight stuff well below their CR at first until you get a good handle on their strengths and weaknesses. Then you can begin to challenge them.

My 2 CP anyway

SneeR

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2011, 04:43:52 PM »
Haha, I'm pretty sure that, of Sunic's 4600 posts, at least half contain "Hi Welcome" (excluding his sig).

Is he correct, though in his statement that combat never lasts more than two rounds? What about hordes of lesser enemies with a BBEG? Would that stretch things out?

Though my players are not CO, they love to play smart. They use the environment against enemies and utilize group tactics that I never expect. Are there any enemies that particularly take to those kinds of tactics?

Do Beguiler's get similar cheese to other full casters? Just curious.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

Pimpforged

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2011, 04:47:09 PM »
Is he correct, though in his statement that combat never lasts more than two rounds? What about hordes of lesser enemies with a BBEG? Would that stretch things out?

Depends on BBEG. If he's a marshal, yes; if he's a wizard, no.

Overall, I do think rocket tag can be reduced with a careful choice of monsters, but I doubt that it can ever be completely eliminated.

Carnap

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2011, 04:49:12 PM »
Haha, I'm pretty sure that, of Sunic's 4600 posts, at least half contain "Hi Welcome" (excluding his sig).

Is he correct, though in his statement that combat never lasts more than two rounds? What about hordes of lesser enemies with a BBEG? Would that stretch things out?
Full-casters combats lasts at the most 2 rounds or even ends before they begin ;) The main point is BBEG. If he isn't a caster with optimized spells, the combat could last longer, because sides wouldn't have enough fire power to finish it earlier.

Though my players are not CO, they love to play smart. They use the environment against enemies and utilize group tactics that I never expect. Are there any enemies that particularly take to those kinds of tactics?
Slow (or with restrained movement abilities) and big ones. Like Xoorivintaal dragons in caves or narrow canyons.

Do Beguiler's get similar cheese to other full casters? Just curious.

Beguilers got time stop and generally have nice spell list, so I'd rather be careful with them.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2011, 04:53:09 PM »
Oh. So Sunics lies are a constructive help to SneeR? Because I only see him telling SneeR "Fuck them. Let them die. They learn or will be dying". That's not very helpful in my opinion.
'Lie' is quite a big word, isn't it? I would use it very cautiously.

I agree, I don't think Sunic lies, he just views everything as very black and white and has a very heavy-handed approach towards correcting what he considers to be wrong.
And that's why I warned SneeR, but I think he knew already.

Quote
:backtotopic
@SneeR:
In my experience tier 3-4 characters with a decent amount of optimization can survive fairly well at mid-high levels, just don't expect them to perform at the same level as a tier 1-2 character. I would recommend having them fight stuff well below their CR at first until you get a good handle on their strengths and weaknesses. Then you can begin to challenge them.

My 2 CP anyway
Exactly. That's better then what I suggested.

Quote
Do Beguiler's get similar cheese to other full casters? Just curious.
I think that not so much. He's tier 3 after all. His spell selection is limited and in a non-CO team it's unlikely to abuse them.

Quote
Is he correct, though in his statement that combat never lasts more than two rounds?
Again, in HIS games most probably. But you are not him, right? ;) And your players aren't optimizers. So longer encounters shouldn't be rare.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

Carnap

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2011, 04:56:45 PM »
I think that not so much. He's tier 3 after all. His spell selection is limited and in a non-CO team it's unlikely to abuse them.

He is tier 2, but JaronK made a mistake and didn't correct it. Check HERE.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2011, 05:10:11 PM »
I think that not so much. He's tier 3 after all. His spell selection is limited and in a non-CO team it's unlikely to abuse them.

He is tier 2, but JaronK made a mistake and didn't correct it. Check HERE.
Okay. But still, in the hands of a non-CO player it's not that dangerous.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

SneeR

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2011, 05:24:34 PM »
Slow (or with restrained movement abilities) and big ones. Like Xoorivintaal dragons in caves or narrow canyons.

That is great advice! Wow, that makes so much snese. If they can dance around it, they can kill it!
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2011, 07:05:50 PM »
So let's see...

Wyrm of War dragon (who by the way, can still cast spells, they just lose divine spells and domains, assuming they even have divine spells and domains, and if they don't they lose nothing and can still get it) still tears them apart.

And a Hi Welcome to Jarona.

Haha, I'm pretty sure that, of Sunic's 4600 posts, at least half contain "Hi Welcome" (excluding his sig).

Actually, Hi Welcome is a relatively recent thing. A hundred or so, if that.

Quote
Is he correct, though in his statement that combat never lasts more than two rounds? What about hordes of lesser enemies with a BBEG? Would that stretch things out?

Nope. It does however increase the chance they two round you. Because you can't two round them first, and they have more dakka.

Quote
Though my players are not CO, they love to play smart. They use the environment against enemies and utilize group tactics that I never expect. Are there any enemies that particularly take to those kinds of tactics?

Do Beguiler's get similar cheese to other full casters? Just curious.

None of those things compare to just full attacking, except of course, casting spells.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2011, 09:25:05 PM »
Is he correct, though in his statement that combat never lasts more than two rounds? What about hordes of lesser enemies with a BBEG? Would that stretch things out?
Hordes of meaty enemies tend to take longer if theres not an actual T1-2 caster flexing  their muscles, but generally I find even melee would be taking down 0.5 enemies per character per round. Assuming its a tough enemy.
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[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
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[/spoiler]

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2011, 10:04:42 AM »
The reason why combat has a short time limit isn't because of what you're doing, though certainly many things finish it quickly. It's because of what the enemy is doing. If you can't finish it in the time limit, they finish you, instead.

Respect the time limit. That is the most important thing.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Whisper

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2011, 06:33:54 AM »
Haha, I'm pretty sure that, of Sunic's 4600 posts, at least half contain "Hi Welcome" (excluding his sig).

Heh. The trick to Sunic is to stop thinking of it as a person.

Back in the early days of Battle.net, it was convenient for Diablo players to have a reference for the stats of any item in the game. So someone wrote an IRC chatbot, programmed it with all known stats, and set it loose in Battle.net IRC to answer with them when asked.

He called it "DainBramage". It was incredibly useful, but you wouldn't want to try to have a conversation with it.

Sunic is like that. Ask it a D&D mechanics question, you'll get good and detailed info. Converse with it about anything else, you'll get nonsense. It really doesn't matter whether it is a basement dweller, Asperger's syndrome sufferer, obsessive hobbyist, some kind of bizarre and cunning troll or parody, or an attempt at passing a Turing test. Speculating about its motives is fruitless and kind of uninteresting.

Just use it to learn about obscure feats and spells you may have overlooked. The insults are kind of background static, so constant in both density and character that they can be filtered out with little or no mental effort, and thus don't really affect the signal to noise ratio much. 

veekie

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Re: High level campaigns
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2011, 06:55:00 AM »
Also avoid keywords like Pathfinder and 4E as they override constructive outputs.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."