Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.

[Bozwevial]

German shepherds have an average IQ of about 60 and qualify for the Polish military on that alone, so a 3 Int being 75 is pretty good, actually.

They're the exception rather than the norm, as I understand it. At any rate, someone who had just been hit with a Feeblemind would score a 68 or so, which doesn't seem quite what I'd expect for someone who can't speak, understand language, or do anything based on Intelligence or Charisma. Of course, it's silly to argue about how Intelligence translates into IQ, but the point is that a balor is pretty damned smart, which makes planning its actions something of a hassle.

[veekie]

Well, on the DM's side, it can be used meta-ly by using Just As Planned with scene set pieces that you just added out of sight on the fly(sorta like using hero points to declare aspects on a scene in M&M or Fate points in FATE). Too much effort for random fights, but for a climatic battle it can be appropriate.

[Bozwevial]

Well, on the DM's side, it can be used meta-ly by using Just As Planned with scene set pieces that you just added out of sight on the fly(sorta like using hero points to declare aspects on a scene in M&M or Fate points in FATE). Too much effort for random fights, but for a climatic battle it can be appropriate.

Spell selection for planned casters can likewise be fixed by leaving one or two slots per level open and then swapping in spells on the fly, sort of like Uncanny Forethought. You want to use this sparingly, though, because it gets tiresome when yet another evil wizard pulls out the perfect spell to deal with the party.

[veekie]

I used the Quantum Spell List a few times myself before. Basically I prepare 3-4 spell lists for that archetype, and as the encounter progresses, the spell lists narrow into one specific set.

[Whisper]

Of course, it's silly to argue about how Intelligence translates into IQ

That closed caption was evidently intended for you.

[Bozwevial]

Of course, it's silly to argue about how Intelligence translates into IQ

That closed caption was evidently intended for you.

No, I got that, funnily enough. Hence the "it honestly doesn't matter" bit.

[veekie]

Most 'accurate' way of translating Int to IQ is probably a scale that narrows as you go up. A X + (1/Y) progression. At least, thats the most feasible way, given that the higher Ints can no longer be properly distinguished by testing due to all being off measurable charts, whereas the lower Ints are quite distinct and identifiable.

[Bloody Initiate]

*Allows cat to walk around on his keyboard for awhile*

What the fuck was that? Do people actually try to discuss shit anymore or do they just write 10 generic responses for the day and then plug them into threads at random?

Where in my sentence you quoted do I say some shit that would prompt you to do math?

Here's what I did:

Balor has 24 int.
Level 20 wizard probably has more int.
Player playing level 20 wizard is probably not that far above or below average int, which either way ends up below 24.

[Sunic_Flames]

What the fuck does any of this have to do with the actual topic of the actual thread here? Answer: None.

[skydragonknight]

 

[veekie]

Well, on topic, theres a sweet spot of competence where the greatest number of options open up. This is where players can reasonably undertake any challenge thrown at them, while still below the point where options start being locked out because of the sheer countermeasures being in play.

Getting there and staying there takes some coordination though.

[Sunic_Flames]

Well no, because even at that point there's stuff getting locked out. There's also a lot of stuff that isn't, but the weak starts getting blocked before more useful stuff becomes available.

[veekie]

Elaborate?

Divination use and abuse is one common one. Quite a few game premises fail entirely when pitted against well used divinations, while Scrying is in a world of its own. Most of these are otherwise rather sophisticated investigatory premises.

Anything involving minions on a long term basis is another. Mostly from sheer DM overload and the logistics of dragging tag alongs. Thats before Ice Assassins and Simulacrums of course.

Teleportation serves another one, it shred the majority of travel based premises.

Thats just the utility end of it. They trivialize entire spectrums of game premises and...give what in return to the game experience?

Defensively, Mind Blank, True Seeing, Freedom of Movement and Death Ward invalidate entire spectrums of themed enemies. On the other hand they DO cancel out a ton of bad luck "you're fucked because of bad dice please die now".
So they serve a role, abeit by blocking other terrible game features. But to see the effects of them being common, just watch what happens when people play with deific immunities. It basically devolves to 'spam ridiculous damage, thanks'.

[AleksanderTheGreat]

I've got one thing to say (write):
This isn't cRPG. You're playing with a human GM and his (and all of the players) job/duty is to make the game fun/entertaining.
You might like challanges and probably have enough experience and expertise to defeat them BUT not everyone is like you. If handling "rat infestations" is entertaining enough for some players, then what's the problem? There are always those who get the shiny things and those who have to live in shit and work hard. PCs who are optimized are (fluff-wise) the more talented ones and get things easier and better. Non-optimized characters have to work their asses of and they get less. Like IRL.
The thing is, a DnD game is about "heroes"/adventurers. If the PCs are not "competent"... the encounters must be scaled to their competence, even if it means that they will get lower CR monsters/problems, because it's not about "clearing the game on hardcore difficulty". the difficulty of the game should always be "just right" for the players. Of course it's not simple and I had never played with a GM who mastered this, but some of them were pretty close.
(I hope that the above is somewhat on topic.)

If I understand correctly, you are saying that if a PC is too weak then he's not gonna have "real adventures" and therefore the player will not gonna have fun? (Sorry for stupid question.)

[veekie]

^^
Yes, and hes right, to a degree.
Being incapable to presenting an effective combat challenge strongly limits the DM in presenting encounters, while senses present another(want to try an underground game with the stealth user not having darkvision of some sort?), mobility being a common issue(if you're melee and can't fly, good luck with teen level encounters, anything that doesn't fly would onehit you most of the time).

Of course, its worse if the party is lopsided, with one hypercompetent or Special Needs member. At least if the whole party is consistent the DM can adapt.

[archangel.arcanis]

@AleksanderTheGreat Sunic tends to have a very ridged view of the game and how it is "properly" played. In brief if you aren't a full caster you are at best useless and in most cases dead weight dragging the party down. This thread is about how a game should be run to force players to play what he deems competent characters. Obviously anyone who has been around here knows that 3.5 is a screwy system that has a lot of broken shit in it. His argument is basically either the DM is dumbing the game down for the idiot who decided the weapon focus/spec/supremacy line was a good idea or throwing encounters that challenge a well made tier 1 character and just killing the weapons junkie. Either the weapons junkie makes a "real" character or his new one will die within a few encounters anyway, think of it as forced evolution with swords spell component pouches.  
 

'ed

I'll also add the whole thing gets to be a mess when it is the DM who can't optimize. I'm a decent optimizer but when my dwarf monk who focuses on tripping without changing size is devastating a game you know there are some issues with the way it is being run and the rest of the party for not out shining him.

[Sunic_Flames]

Elaborate?

Assuming a game that is merely competent, and goes no further, there are long lists of classes and things that simply Do Not Work(tm). There's also long lists of things that do, but unless you are actively and blatantly easy moding classes start getting cockblocked before more actual options get added to the list.

Divination use and abuse is one common one. Quite a few game premises fail entirely when pitted against well used divinations, while Scrying is in a world of its own. Most of these are otherwise rather sophisticated investigatory premises.

Anything involving minions on a long term basis is another. Mostly from sheer DM overload and the logistics of dragging tag alongs. Thats before Ice Assassins and Simulacrums of course.

Teleportation serves another one, it shred the majority of travel based premises.

Thats just the utility end of it. They trivialize entire spectrums of game premises and...give what in return to the game experience?

Defensively, Mind Blank, True Seeing, Freedom of Movement and Death Ward invalidate entire spectrums of themed enemies. On the other hand they DO cancel out a ton of bad luck "you're fucked because of bad dice please die now".
So they serve a role, abeit by blocking other terrible game features. But to see the effects of them being common, just watch what happens when people play with deific immunities. It basically devolves to 'spam ridiculous damage, thanks'.

While it is true that real abilities win low level adventures, that wasn't the point of what I was saying. IP Proofing measures certainly are not.

I've got one thing to say (write):
This isn't cRPG. You're playing with a human GM and his (and all of the players) job/duty is to make the game fun/entertaining.
You might like challanges and probably have enough experience and expertise to defeat them BUT not everyone is like you. If handling "rat infestations" is entertaining enough for some players, then what's the problem? There are always those who get the shiny things and those who have to live in shit and work hard. PCs who are optimized are (fluff-wise) the more talented ones and get things easier and better. Non-optimized characters have to work their asses of and they get less. Like IRL.

The same people that play fail characters want to go on real adventures without being automatically annihilated. So either they step it up, so they can handle real adventures, or they step on out as either they don't get real adventures, or the real adventurers slaughter them, in either case because they cannot handle it.

The thing is, a DnD game is about "heroes"/adventurers. If the PCs are not "competent"... the encounters must be scaled to their competence, even if it means that they will get lower CR monsters/problems, because it's not about "clearing the game on hardcore difficulty". the difficulty of the game should always be "just right" for the players. Of course it's not simple and I had never played with a GM who mastered this, but some of them were pretty close.
(I hope that the above is somewhat on topic.)

If I understand correctly, you are saying that if a PC is too weak then he's not gonna have "real adventures" and therefore the player will not gonna have fun? (Sorry for stupid question.)

And if a group shows up and isn't playing heroes or adventurers, they get Commoner: The RPG, while all the jobs that should have went to the PCs instead go to random NPCs, or don't get done at all. But hey, if they keep farming rats long enough, they might get the rare world drop from them!

And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Farming rats isn't enjoyable, and mostly comes up in D&D campaigns as a joke. People are playing to get real adventures, but if they can't handle real adventures they either get grunt work, or automatic annihilation.

Skipping past more flail and fail.

[AleksanderTheGreat]

^^
Yes, and hes right, to a degree.
Being incapable to presenting an effective combat challenge strongly limits the DM in presenting encounters, while senses present another(want to try an underground game with the stealth user not having darkvision of some sort?), mobility being a common issue(if you're melee and can't fly, good luck with teen level encounters, anything that doesn't fly would onehit you most of the time).

Of course, its worse if the party is lopsided, with one hypercompetent or Special Needs member. At least if the whole party is consistent the DM can adapt.

Well. I've never meet a GM who sent a monster or encounter at the players when he knew that it will destroy them easily. Though to defeat, yes (like weak monster that has some kind of advantage), but not almost impossible.
Yeah, I know, metagaming.

@AleksanderTheGreat Sunic tends to have a very ridged view of the game and how it is "properly" played. In brief if you aren't a full caster you are at best useless and in most cases dead weight dragging the party down. This thread is about how a game should be run to force players to play what he deems competent characters. Obviously anyone who has been around here knows that 3.5 is a screwy system that has a lot of broken shit in it. His argument is basically either the DM is dumbing the game down for the idiot who decided the weapon focus/spec/supremacy line was a good idea or throwing encounters that challenge a well made tier 1 character and just killing the weapons junkie. Either the weapons junkie makes a "real" character or his new one will die within a few encounters anyway, think of it as forced evolution with swords spell component pouches.  
 

'ed

I'll also add the whole thing gets to be a mess when it is the DM who can't optimize. I'm a decent optimizer but when my dwarf monk who focuses on tripping without changing size is devastating a game you know there are some issues with the way it is being run and the rest of the party for not out shining him.

So I've noticed. Rather "extreme" approach.
I'm new on the board but I already know something about DnD being broken and how it works. In my opinion it's all in the eye of the beholder. But whatever. If it works for him.

@ Sunic_Flames
Meh. As I said, people play differently. What for you is rat farming, for other is good adventure.

[skydragonknight]

One of the hardest enemies in Secret of Evermore was a rat...just saying.

It would be highly amusing if the rat the players let get away at level 1 comes back as a Paragon Titanic Monster of Legend Dire Rat bent on revenge.

[archangel.arcanis]

Skipping past more flail and fail.

Since there are only 2 posts you didn't quote I'm fairly certain this was aimed at me.

I wasn't bashing you or your style. You play how you want to play. I was addressing AleksanderTheGreat question by explaining your typical stance on issues. Everything in quotes was to put into the context of how you use the word rather than its literal definition.

BTW welcome back. It was a strange week without you here and I suspected you weren't going to return.

One of the hardest enemies in Secret of Evermore was a rat...just saying.

It would be highly amusing if the rat the players let get away at level 1 comes back as a Paragon Titanic Monster of Legend Dire Rat bent on revenge.

Does it count if you use the Nezumi?? (Rat people from Rokugan). I did this to players in a game once just to have a play on the old kill 10 rats style quest.