Author Topic: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.  (Read 31628 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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The out of towners entered the bar, one a tall man decked out in armor and weapons, one a shifty little short fellow - very short, in fact, one who had way too many sun symbols on his armor, some of which in wholly inappropriate places and one dressed in brightly colored robes, aptly embroidered with the title "Kaboom."

The assorted drunks, wenches, and other miscreants turned to them before returning to their business. The group found themselves a table, ordered some food and drink and talked among themselves a while before their spokesperson - the walking arsenal approached the barkeep and inquired about any work they might have in this town.

Now the barkeep, like most of his kind was a Fighter, one that had retired once he realized his choice of career was the D&D equivalent of choosing to major in Philosophy so as to not fetter his companions with his continued dead weight. Nonetheless, he had learned a few very important skills in his career - how to stab things, how to stab things hard but less accurately, how to stab things harder, how to stab things more accurately, how to be quicker about stabbing things... and how to size enemies up, as there are many things that could care less about stabbing. The barkeep applied this same talent to the man standing before him. He considered the question a moment.

He then said, "Well, I got a nice rat problem in my cellar..."

The mobile weapon rack was flabbergasted. "You want me to clear RATS from your CELLAR?"

"Well, it is work we need doing." he remarked, deadpan.

But the heavily armed man was having none of it. "How about real adventure?"

The barkeep scoffed. "Real adventure?" he asked incredulously. "You want real adventure?"

The adventurer's fellows had by now started to glance over to see what all the fuss was about, as their leader nodded eagerly.

The barkeep climbed up onto his bar, looking a bit foolish, moreso since he had put on some weight in his retirement. He pointed dramatically down at the other man and declared loudly, "You can't handle real adventure!"

D&D is a highly meritocratic world. Put simply, those who lack the power to keep their power will lose it, and be replaced by someone that can maintain their position. And there will always be tests of power, measures of ability, checkpoints that you are unable to pass if you are not at least a certain height capability wise, a trait that is independent of physical height.

So what's this mean for you?

Well one of two things. The first is that everyone goes off into the world, the strong survive, and the rest get slaughtered for the betterment of those around them. The second is that the capable characters get all the epic, the awesome, the INTERESTING adventures. The Short Bus Hobos get charged with dealing with being lackeys, and of course dealing with rat infestations.

Now initially I assumed the first instance would be the case. A number of people however insisted it should be the second, as if that actually helped. After some reflection, I decided the second was more amusing, and better reflects what happens in actual play. This thread is meant to illustrate what happens in the latter instance.

Now obviously, being a Short Bus Hobo (henceforth referred to as SBH) is undesirable. After all you want to go on the good adventures, and actually do stuff that matters without getting slaughtered right? Well SBHs only have two choices - get slaughtered over and over and over again, or only go on Fail adventures. Those guys the Bards are singing about, and sleeping with? Yeah, they've gone beyond Amateur hour at the local Hobo bar. They're actually competent. And people know it. So they get all the Epic and Awesome adventures, and they succeed at those adventures and come back, and people form lines to suck their cocks (or eat them out, for the females in the fine business of Killing Things and Taking Their Stuff). It's good to be famous. And even if they don't succeed, the stories of their last adventure are still sufficiently awesome, because their enemies are awesome too. And there's no shame in being beaten by other competents.

So you see, it's good to make characters who actually know what the fuck they are doing not only for all the obvious reasons like not wanting to get slaughtered, and because people don't sign up for deadly jobs if they don't have a fucking clue but also because the alternative to getting slaughtered over and over and over again is being a SBH, who gets treated as if they would get slaughtered over and over and over again if they actually did anything interesting. And people play games to do awesome things, not to fail at life.

So how do you avoid being a SBH? This is both simple and difficult - you make sure you can do your fucking job, and you IP proof so you can keep doing it. Sounds simple, but the particulars can be difficult to do. I'm not going to go into the details. It's a CO board, use your search bar. You also want to make sure your job doesn't leave you open to being a CAP victim, like the bartender in that story. But that's it really. Simple to describe, simple or difficult to do.

Now how do you tell if you are a SBH?

Answer the following questions:

Can you handle encounters of a level greater than the current party level? If yes, can you handle them as frequently as the game expects (a full 40% of the time, which means literally every single day, often more than once)? If the answer is no to either of these questions, you are a SBH.

How frequently do you encounter enemies of a lower level than the party? If the answer is anything other than very rare or never, you are a SBH. Particularly if such are common.

Do you struggle to defeat routine encounters? If so, you are a Short Bus Hobo. Contact your Build Doctor right away.

In closing, it is important to separate differences in ability from differences in opportunity. In other words, if your party could handle the encounters expected of them, but instead gets easier encounters because the DM is coddling them, then that means that the DM is coddling them, but does not mean they are SBHs. It is only when characters are presented with Tests of Competence that they Fail, or that they know they would fail if such ToCs were presented to them that they are SBHs, and turned into Driders Rat Hunters. DM coddling is an entirely different problem, though it often does accompany groups of SBHs it is not the same thing.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Shadeseraph

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2011, 11:43:58 AM »
Well, in my experience, most SBHs tend to make the games derail into DM cuddling, so I wouldn't call them independent. Because the DM can't play unless he has players, he usually ends adapting to the "ineptitude" of the party.

The main problem is when a SBH player changes group into a non-SBH one, or when someone on the group starts wanting to play a non-SBH game.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2011, 12:40:17 PM »
Well, in my experience, most SBHs tend to make the games derail into DM cuddling, so I wouldn't call them independent. Because the DM can't play unless he has players, he usually ends adapting to the "ineptitude" of the party.

The main problem is when a SBH player changes group into a non-SBH one, or when someone on the group starts wanting to play a non-SBH game.

My point was that it is possible for a DM to coddle without there being a team of SBHs. They usually go together, but not always, and just because a DM is coddling doesn't automatically mean your characters fail at life. It does usually mean the DM thinks they fail at life though, even if they actually don't. So still means you should be alarmed, just for different reasons.

And the problem comes about the moment someone shows up with a SBH character, as they either try to take off their special helmet and get slaughtered, or get bored of the world treating them like a retard. Yes, more problems come up once people go into real games and such, but the problem started the moment whatever problem made them a SBH did.

This isn't even always the player's fault. For example, low magic + D&D = full caster or SBH, pick one, and since the low magic sorts are power tripping douchebags, who will start whining and flailing if the whole group makes the only intelligent decision there, you will be condemned to ride the Short Bus through no fault of your own. It usually is the player's fault though, as they're the ones choosing to "play a Fighter" or "play a Monk" or "thinks that Big Six items are not absolutely required for your very existence".
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2011, 04:43:06 PM »
You're actually considering CR a metric for performance?


Seriously.  A NPC-wealthed fighter20 is considered just as much a CR 20 encounter as a balor or a wyrm black dragon.

One of those guys can be taken out by a noncasting party half their level.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2011, 04:45:15 PM »
You're actually considering CR a metric for performance?


Seriously.  A NPC-wealthed fighter20 is considered just as much a CR 20 encounter as a balor or a wyrm black dragon.

One of those guys can be taken out by a noncasting party half their level.

Straw man from the mushroom. Anyone else want to try?
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2011, 04:48:50 PM »
You're actually considering CR a metric for performance?


Seriously.  A NPC-wealthed fighter20 is considered just as much a CR 20 encounter as a balor or a wyrm black dragon.

One of those guys can be taken out by a noncasting party half their level.
That's Sunic. Fail as always. And ignores any point that says "You're wrong". :rollseyes
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2011, 04:51:47 PM »
Quote
Can you handle encounters of a level greater than the current party level? If yes, can you handle them as frequently as the game expects (a full 40% of the time, which means literally every single day, often more than once)?

Quote

Quote
The PCs should run

So where are you getting that 40% from?

And why do you feel it necessary to stand and fight for everything?
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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2011, 04:58:40 PM »
Quote
And why do you feel it necessary to stand and fight for everything?
That's how he rolls, man. All gangsta, making drive-through smitings and all that shit. :p
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[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
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Carnap

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2011, 05:06:27 PM »
That's Sunic. Fail as always. And ignores any point that says "You're wrong". :rollseyes

He at least managed to explain you, that fighter 20 could be taken out by a noncasting party half their level. Not that bad.

Sunic, you are talking about highly idealized gamestyle. From my experience, most DMs do not prepare their encounters with CR calculator. They just throw stuff and cheat as hell while rolling to keep everybody alive. My point is: you can play DnD tactically, caring about IP proofing and so on, but the whole mathematical masterpiece becomes irrelevant, because most of the time Mister Cavern ignores these things. In other words, you are talking to players, but firstly you should show MCs how to prepare and run DnD adventure.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2011, 05:14:12 PM »
Sunic, you are talking about highly idealized gamestyle. From my experience, most DMs do not prepare their encounters with CR calculator. They just throw stuff and cheat as hell while rolling to keep everybody alive. My point is: you can play DnD tactically, caring about IP proofing and so on, but the whole mathematical masterpiece becomes irrelevant, because most of the time Mister Cavern ignores these things. In other words, you are talking to players, but firstly you should show MCs how to prepare and run DnD adventure.
Oh! This is very true! I mean, maybe not "cheat", but a GM isn't restricted by anything, so all that IP proofing and optimizing (not that I have something against it) is for naught if he really wanted to srcew his players over. Most GMs are, as Sunic puts it, "coddling" (aka "failing at GMing) their players. Some GMs are good at it, because they know the drill. Others are inexperienced and TPKs are frequent. But the later can always learn from his mistakes and make next games better.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
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Carnap

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 05:20:36 PM »
Oh! This is very true! I mean, maybe not "cheat", but a GM isn't restricted by anything, so all that IP proofing and optimizing (not that I have something against it) is for naught if he really wanted to srcew his players over. Most GMs are, as Sunic puts it, "coddling" (aka "failing at GMing) their players. Some GMs are good at it, because they know the drill. Others are inexperienced and TPKs are frequent. But the later can always learn from his mistakes and make next games better.

It's only about your personal preferences. My fellow COs prefer games without coddling, but my other friends don't. It's all about your favourite gaming style. The problem is when you try to run game with high CO and you don't know how to do it. There are lot handbooks for players, but MCs must discover everything alone. So guide 'how to run a campaign where IP is important' would be extremely useful.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 05:23:05 PM »
Oh! This is very true! I mean, maybe not "cheat", but a GM isn't restricted by anything, so all that IP proofing and optimizing (not that I have something against it) is for naught if he really wanted to srcew his players over. Most GMs are, as Sunic puts it, "coddling" (aka "failing at GMing) their players. Some GMs are good at it, because they know the drill. Others are inexperienced and TPKs are frequent. But the later can always learn from his mistakes and make next games better.

It's only about your personal preferences. My fellow COs prefer games without coddling, but my other friends don't. It's all about your favourite gaming style. The problem is when you try to run game with high CO and you don't know how to do it. There are lot handbooks for players, but MCs must discover everything alone. So guide 'how to run a campaign where IP is important' would be extremely useful.
True.
And what about ready adventures?
So... Sunic, IP proofing guru. Get to work!... please? :flutter
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 05:47:37 PM »
Skipping past more Fail.

Quote
Can you handle encounters of a level greater than the current party level? If yes, can you handle them as frequently as the game expects (a full 40% of the time, which means literally every single day, often more than once)?

Quote

Quote
The PCs should run

So where are you getting that 40% from?

And why do you feel it necessary to stand and fight for everything?

2 + 4 + 5. That's where. You always stand and fight because you can't run, and encounter levels are for combat so say... encountering a Great Wyrm at level 5 only counts as an encounter for this purpose if it wants to kill you. If it wants to talk or something, that's fine.

Sunic, you are talking about highly idealized gamestyle. From my experience, most DMs do not prepare their encounters with CR calculator. They just throw stuff and cheat as hell while rolling to keep everybody alive. My point is: you can play DnD tactically, caring about IP proofing and so on, but the whole mathematical masterpiece becomes irrelevant, because most of the time Mister Cavern ignores these things. In other words, you are talking to players, but firstly you should show MCs how to prepare and run DnD adventure.

If DMs who read and follow the fucking rules instead of randomly flailing about are "highly idealized" then not only am I completely justified in being an Elitist Jerk, I should further increase my level of Elitism, as that's a lot more Fail I need to be filtering out.

But the fuckwits, they can't learn. Indeed, by definition of the word fuckwit they can't learn, so if they could learn, they would not be a fuckwit. Because they can't learn, they can't be saved. They can only be red flagged and avoided, much like 5 foot squares of difficult terrain. Like the fuckwit who is spamming my thread there? Jarona got the Danger Will Robinson treatment, and that's that.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 05:50:42 PM »
15% + 5% = 20%
15%+5% is not equal to 40%.

This is basic math.

Unless you're assuming that (A) Player characters never handle encounters properly, and (B) when they handle them improperly, the encounter always becomes very difficult, rather than merely "challenging".  I don't think either of those are valid assumptions.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 06:03:21 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 06:01:11 PM »
Quote
Jarona got the Danger Will Robinson treatment, and that's that.
Boy, you better stop or you'll choke on that thing. :o
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 06:19:26 PM »
You always stand and fight because you can't run
Why?

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 06:34:40 PM »
15% + 5% = 20%
15%+5% is not equal to 40%.

This is basic math.

Unless you're assuming that (A) Player characters never handle encounters properly, and (B) when they handle them improperly, the encounter always becomes very difficult, rather than merely "challenging".  I don't think either of those are valid assumptions.

Well, see how I said 2 + 4 + 5 and not 4 + 5? Yeah, it's because you left a 20% entry out. An entry that totals up to... wait for it... 40%.

Which, all in all results in half of all encounters being routine, 40% being harder than routine for one reason or another, and a mere 10% being easier.

You always stand and fight because you can't run
Why?

Enemies are faster and/or just pewpewpew you down with ranged. Not to mention anything you'd actually want to run from, such as the aforementioned level + 5 or more encounters will slaughter half the party, minimum before you realize that you need to run. And by then it's far, far too late. This is why competence is important, because you fight something stronger than you about twice per three levels and you have no choice but to put it down. This is particularly true since more levels = more abilities, so it can easily counter your abilities, such as say... those spent running away. So even the only viable means of escape, that you first have to level up enough to GET, while dealing with hard encounters get shut down.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2011, 06:45:21 PM »
Ah, then you do indeed (as I speculated) assume that all players are idiots, and don't even use the most basic of tactics.  Furthermore, you assume that all puzzle encounters are above your EL, even though "If not handled properly, this kind of encounter becomes challenging or even very difficult" - where "challenging", of course, is an encounter equal to your level.

In addition, you assume that all encounters are combat encounters with bloodthirsty foes who want nothing more than to kill the PCs for no adequately explained reason.  This is clearly not the case.
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SeekingKnight

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2011, 06:50:36 PM »
A more normal reason to stand and fight is because you want the loot that the beast/person is carrying/guarding.  Isn't part of the reason to dungeon crawl (and yes I know that there is more to rpgs then dungeon crawling but lets take a broad example shall we) is to get the loot or rescue some npc?  Sure a Dm can run a game how ever (s)he wants but if they follow the rules as well as properly play monsters instead of having them stand there then TPK would be standard fair.  Remember that Tomb of Horrors was ment for a high character death count.  You are expected to die and roll up a new character unless you IP Proof.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Law of Proportionate Response OR how competence begots competence.
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2011, 06:55:22 PM »
*shrug* this stuff makes plenty of sense, not sure what the arguments are about. Although officially CR IS frequently inaccurate, any kind of generalized measurement of power is going to be.

In my current game we *technically* beat a CR 9 at level 3. Except that the "CR 9" was an unoptimized Dwarven Fighter 9 who wasn't looking for a fight.

Soon we have to go against a Glabrezu + Hezrou, we're now level 4, and I'm not sure how we're going to pull it off with a Tier 3-4 party.

I knew the level 9 fighter was a joke, but I know to take the higher level outsiders seriously.

My point is just that the inaccuracy of the CR system can be countered by players who know enough to pick their battles. They don't actually always get to pick their battles, but they know why two enemies of similar CR perform so differently.
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