Author Topic: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent  (Read 27817 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Carnap

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 110
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2011, 05:47:39 AM »
Each spell could be used as spell-like ability at will, standard action.

Level BAB          Fort Ref  Will  0lvl1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th  Special
1st   +0           +0   +0   +2    3   2   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -    Magic Missile, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Mage Armor
2nd   +1           +0   +0   +3    4   3   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -    Shield, Alarm, Obscuring Mist
3rd   +1           +1   +1   +3    5   3   2   -   -   -   -   -   -   -    Floating Disk, Shatter
4th   +2           +1   +1   +4    5   3   2   -   -   -   -   -   -   -    Fireball, Silent Image
5th   +2           +1   +1   +4    5   3   3   2   -   -   -   -   -   -    Web, Acid Arrow
6th   +3           +2   +2   +5    6   4   3   2   -   -   -   -   -   -    Charm, Ray of Enfeeblement
7th   +3           +2   +2   +5    6   4   3   3   2   -   -   -   -   -    Blur, Dispel Magic
8th   +4           +2   +2   +6    6   4   3   3   2   -   -   -   -   -    Invisibility, Scorching Ray
9th   +4           +3   +3   +6    7   4   4   3   3   2   -   -   -   -    Fly, Shout
10th  +5           +3   +3   +7    7   5   4   3   3   2   -   -   -   -    Arcane Eye, Dimension Door
11th  +5           +3   +3   +7    7   5   4   4   3   3   2   -   -   -    Charm Monster, Cone of Cold
12th  +6/+1        +4   +4   +8    7   5   4   4   3   3   2   -   -   -    Black Tentacles, Bestow Curse
13th  +6/+1        +4   +4   +8    7   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   -   -    Wall of Stone, Dismissal
14th  +7/+2        +4   +4   +9    7   6   5   4   4   3   3   2   -   -    Teleport, Solid Fog
15th  +7/+2        +5   +5   +9    7   6   6   5   4   4   3   3   2   -    Summon Monster IV, Polar Ray
16th  +8/+3        +5   +5   +10   7   6   6   5   4   4   3   3   2   -    True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic
17th  +8/+3        +5   +5   +10   7   6   6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2    Wall of Force, Hold Monster
18th  +9/+4        +6   +6   +11   7   6   6   5   5   4   4   4   3   2    Meteor Swarm, Foresight
19th  +9/+4        +6   +6   +11   7   6   6   6   5   5   4   4   4   3    Move Earth, Control Water
20th  +10/+5       +6   +6   +12   7   6   6   6   5   5   4   4   4   4    Disintegrate, Plane Shift

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2011, 06:14:45 AM »
Though as intended I suspect they were thinking of Wild Shape as a scouting mode where you'd turn into an array of small animals to scout.

Anyone knows how Wild Shape worked in 2e?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Gods_Trick

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 787
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2011, 06:32:35 AM »
Though as intended I suspect they were thinking of Wild Shape as a scouting mode where you'd turn into an array of small animals to scout.

Anyone knows how Wild Shape worked in 2e?

Hmm, maybe make one Small scouting from at 5th, then one Medium combat form at 8th, one Large form at 11th, and so on.

If the forms use the Druids HD you can personalize them as they level perhaps with stats bonuses and whatnot.

wotmaniac

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2207
  • Emperor's Enforcer
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2011, 08:31:50 AM »
Anyone knows how Wild Shape worked in 2e?
Quote from: AD&D 2nd Ed. Player's Handbook
He gains the ability to shapechange into a reptile, bird, or mammal up to three times
per day after he reaches 7th level. Each animal form (reptile, bird, or mammal) can be
used only once per day. The size can vary from that of a bullfrog or small bird to as large
as a black bear. Upon assuming a new form, the druid heals 10-60% (1d6 _ 10%) of all
damage he has suffered (round fractions down). The druid can only assume the form of a
normal (real world) animal in its normal proportions, but by doing so he takes on all of
that creature's characteristics -- its movement rate and abilities, its Armor Class, number
of attacks, and damage per attack.
Thus, a druid could change into a wren to fly across a river, transform into a black bear
on the opposite side and attack the orcs gathered there, and finally change into a snake to
escape into the bushes before more orcs arrive.
The druid's clothing and one item held in each hand also become part of the new body;
these reappear when the druid resumes his normal shape. The items cannot be used while
the druid is in animal form.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2011, 09:40:38 AM »
I like where these are going so far.  I like the cleric and wizard.  I've attempted this sort of thing several times, but never liked the results I got.  I like the class features you've added, and the way you handle some of the wizard's spells with SLAs.  I'm having a tough time evaluating it because I've been getting in a Tome mindset, but these still look playable and interesting.  I like how the cleric got some of the paladin's abilities.  Would you consider X/day swift-action cure/inflict spells as the class gains levels?

As for the druid, I'd say you either need to pick your specialization, or casting, the animal companion, and wildshape all need to be nerfed.  I personally like the PHB II shapeshift ACF, but that's mostly because it gets rid of all of the problems of dumpster-diving through the MM to find those perfect forms.  It's easier and faster to apply at the table.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2011, 10:23:36 AM »
Hmm, so Wild Shape is functioning as intended, but somewhere in the middle the animals became powerhouses?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

wotmaniac

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2207
  • Emperor's Enforcer
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2011, 10:58:39 AM »
Hmm, so Wild Shape is functioning as intended, but somewhere in the middle the animals became powerhouses?
That came with the 3.x -- more HP, consolidated rule set (giving monsters access to the same feats, features, etc. as PCs), standardized/codified ability rules (e.g., DCs, size bonuses for combat maneuvers, linking abilities directly to HD, etc.). .... these all made monsters WAY more powerful than they were in previous editions.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 04:37:58 PM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2011, 02:27:25 PM »
 ... I don't think the shashifter variant really fits the bill.
It was one of those hamfisted nerfs that people just accepted because, wildshaping is so hardcore.
Still, clearly it is about travel forms, and maybe 1 combat form, that shouldn't be huge...
I hate to suggest it but maybe if its a part of the class give it a severe limit on its forms.
I mean, hell the Animal companion, has a chart,   maybe wildshape should too.
About the fighter...
  The most debated class ever I think the class is supposed to run something like the Tome Knight
but basically that what 4ed did.
The challenge is... how to rationalize anyone attacking the muslce bound dude in armor, instead of
the squishy guy who throws fire, sucessful predation dictates the abiility to pick out the weak.
 Without just giving him a taunt(s).
Quote
Designate Opponent (Ex): As a Swift Action, a Knight may mark an opponent as their primary foe. This foe must be within medium range and be able to hear the Knight's challenge. If the target creature inflicts ay damage on the Knight before the Knight's next turn, the attempt fails. Otherwise, any attacks the Knight uses against the opponent during her next turn inflict an extra d6 of damage for each Knight level. This effect ends at the end of her next turn, or when she has struck her opponent a number of times equal to the number of attacks normally allotted her by her Base Attack Bonus.
Example: Vayn is a 6th level Knight presently benefiting from a haste spell, granting her an extra attack during a Full Attack action. On her turn she designates an Ettin as her primary opponent, and the Ettin declines to attack her during the ensuing turn. When her next turn comes up, she uses a Full Attack and attacks 3 times. The first two hits inflict an extra 6d6 of damage, and then she designates the Ettin as her opponent again. It won't soon ignore her!

   
The other idea has to do with making them sticky... Standstill, or some that gives them reach + a power that stops movement/actions on AoO's
 Oh and please don't make the picture of the fighter a human male. You'd think the world was filled with only humans and elves...
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

ThisGuy01

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 93
    • Email
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2011, 04:31:07 PM »
A couple quick questions to clarify the Channel Divinity ability; if the cleric is say Lawful Good, would they choose between doing the healing burst and the AC boost whenever they used the ability or is it a one-time choice?  Also, does the healing burst hit foes as well as allies, or does it only heal allies?

I really like the modifications to the class, cleric is one of my favorite classes to play and the next campaign I'm in, I will see if the DM will allow these changes.

Carnap

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 110
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2011, 04:34:12 PM »
The challenge is... how to rationalize anyone attacking the muslce bound dude in armor, instead of
the squishy guy who throws fire, sucessful predation dictates the abiility to pick out the weak.
 Without just giving him a taunt(s).

Why in this way? Maybe try something stylish.
Quote
Challenging Presence (Ex):

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2011, 05:38:55 PM »
A couple quick questions to clarify the Channel Divinity ability; if the cleric is say Lawful Good, would they choose between doing the healing burst and the AC boost whenever they used the ability or is it a one-time choice?

I'm thinking they get to choose between either one, but that does need to be clarified. The reason they get a bone thrown to them being that they have more restricted access to their spell list if they have two extreme alignment components (the same reason True Neutral Clerics get only one domain).

Quote
Also, does the healing burst hit foes as well as allies, or does it only heal allies?

The healing burst effects all creatures in the burst, friend or foe. But I should probably fix that too, since that could suck.

Quote
I really like the modifications to the class, cleric is one of my favorite classes to play and the next campaign I'm in, I will see if the DM will allow these changes.

Heh, cool, glad you like it. Just make sure you get him to read the spells section and the spell list thoroughly so that he understands this isn't your standard Divine Metamagic Persist Clericzilla.

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2011, 06:00:04 PM »
I like where these are going so far.  I like the cleric and wizard.  I've attempted this sort of thing several times, but never liked the results I got.  I like the class features you've added, and the way you handle some of the wizard's spells with SLAs.  I'm having a tough time evaluating it because I've been getting in a Tome mindset, but these still look playable and interesting.  I like how the cleric got some of the paladin's abilities.  Would you consider X/day swift-action cure/inflict spells as the class gains levels?

I'm pretty happy with how the Wizard turned out. I just hope I didn't go overboard with the blasting bones I threw it. I'm not sure, yet, but probably not. The Cleric is pretty cool, but I just don't like it as much. It's not as elegant. I wanted to fit in a way to get ranged cures/inflicts, but I guess the mass versions are probably good enough. Swift cures/inflicts might be a good idea too. Maybe a feat that spends Channel Divinity feats for this?

Quote
As for the druid, I'd say you either need to pick your specialization, or casting, the animal companion, and wildshape all need to be nerfed.  I personally like the PHB II shapeshift ACF, but that's mostly because it gets rid of all of the problems of dumpster-diving through the MM to find those perfect forms.  It's easier and faster to apply at the table.

I think what I'm going to do with the Druid is kind of make it resemble a divine Wizard (as in the one I designed in this thread). It'll be focused mostly on blasting and BFC, but it'll have a touch of healing in there too, just nothing to make it really stand out. Instead of the utility SLAs though it makes up for this with wildshape (obviously somehow wildly altered from the 3.5 PHB version).

ThisGuy01

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 93
    • Email
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2011, 07:30:28 PM »
Quote
I'm thinking they get to choose between either one, but that does need to be clarified. The reason they get a bone thrown to them being that they have more restricted access to their spell list if they have two extreme alignment components (the same reason True Neutral Clerics get only one domain).

That seems fair to me, you get payment for giving your alignment two extremes.

Quote
The healing burst effects all creatures in the burst, friend or foe. But I should probably fix that too, since that could suck.

You could modify it to a divine energy burst, 'smiting' foes and bolstering allies.  That way it still damages undead.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2011, 07:34:21 PM »
I'd consider reversing the domain paradigm for clerics.

IE: you get a few of your god's domains as your normal spells known.

You can also select one spell of each level off the general cleric list each day.

That makes domains spell selections far more meaningful.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2011, 09:37:24 PM »
In the wildshape case, it might help if the combat forms the druid can access are about par with say...the party monk as intended.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

ThisGuy01

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 93
    • Email
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2011, 09:58:33 PM »
Quote
In the wildshape case, it might help if the combat forms the druid can access are about par with say...the party monk as intended.

Hey now, there's no reason we have to start throwing around the M-word :p 

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2011, 10:47:52 PM »
It WOULD put their wildshape combat prowess where its supposed to be though, a passable fighter rather than Druid, Destroyer of Civilisations.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

ThisGuy01

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 93
    • Email
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2011, 11:59:21 PM »
That's a very valid point, one thing that might be better would be to split druids into two classes, one with wild shape but losing a lot of other class abilities, and another without WS

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2011, 12:28:13 AM »
EDIT: The Fighter's up. One part Zhentarum Soldier, one part Tome Fighter, with a subtle dash of Knight.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 01:19:09 AM by bkdubs123 »

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2011, 02:13:38 AM »
EDIT: The Fighter's up. One part Zhentarum Soldier, one part Tome Fighter, with a subtle dash of Knight.
Traces of "Win" all throughout it. Bravo.
I'm interested to see what the to be continued would be. I'm intrigued by your foil action can't say if its good or bad I'd say it breaks even.
I does cement in my mind that there have been some sucessful fighter remakes out there. Reminds me of that tool song "Lateralus"
"I know the pieces fit..." etc
I'm really curious to see how the "threaten" power works in play.
I stand by my bravo overall. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 02:26:44 AM by Midnight_v »
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"