Author Topic: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent  (Read 27818 times)

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Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #140 on: April 05, 2011, 01:49:03 AM »
More thoughts, and a free bump. ('Cause, you know, being 7 posts down the page is such a detriment.)

Monk

I think the intent of the 3e designers in this case was to pull in older players that either stuck with 1e or players that ported a home-brew monk into 2e. In either case, it was meant to appeal to those players and to also give us a class with an eastern martial arts vibe. We all know how the mechanical side of it worked out. However, I personally had two players (out of seven) during the 2e -> 3e switch that were excited to see the barbarian and monk make a comeback for 3e. both these players had played those classes in 1e and immediately set about making 3e versions.

Comparing the monk mechanics to the monk description does not jive in a few specific examples. Those are relatively easy to correct. The performance level, on the other hand, doesn't cut it without a level of CharOp that no class should require. We need to tone it up in a few places and simply remove a few of the pieces that don't make a ton of sense.

I went for the 'very mobile, circle the main skirmish, attack the guys in the back' model.

Since I don't really feel like parsing out the class table for this site, I'm just going to run down the abilities.

[spoiler]
HD: 1d8
Saves: All good
BAB: Medium
Skill Points: 4 points per level
Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (local, religion), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble

(As you can see only the skill list changed and only minutely. I really wanted to avoid the typical response to give it good BAB and a bigger HD. I never got the feeling the designers wanted a 5th full BAB class but one that uses fists. Oh, and about the skill list... a monastary is not a mobile base. There isn't much reason to skip Know: Local. However, Know: Arcana just didn't seem to fit. I'd honestly be ok with all knowledge skills. That sort of fits just as well.)

Unarmed StrikeIron Belly if you want to.

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk. Once more, there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk.Stunning Fist: Stunning Fist as a free feat!

(Yeah, it's not much, but it's free.)

AC Bonus (Ex):Deflect Arrows: Gain the feat for free at level 1!

(Whoopee! Honestly, I almost took this away. One arrow per round is practically nothing.)

Fast Movement (Ex): A monk carrying no more than a light load gains an enhancement bonus to speed...

Level 1-2: +10 ft.
Level 3-5: +20 ft.
Level 6-8: +30 ft.
Level 9-11: +40 ft.
Level 12-14: +50 ft.
Level 15-17: +60 ft.
Level 18-19: +70 ft.
Level 20: +80 ft.

(Again, just advanced the previous progression a little bit. This allows her to get impressive speeds earlier.)

Evasion (Ex): At level 2, gain Evasion!

(Evasion falls into line with the other save improvement abilities granted later on. It also strikes me that evasion, both here and on the rogue, quite simply points to the designer's intent that direct damage was going to be the likely method of play.)

Combat Reflexes: At level 2, gain Combat Reflexes!

(Wasn't sure about this one either. I guess it helps reinforce the Dex based combatant and will help with her damage per round.)

Flurry: Starting at level 3, the monk can make a flurry of attacks. She gains one additional attack but only when making a full attack. This increases to two extra attacks at level 9 and three extra attacks at level 15. These attacks are made at her highest base attack bonus.

(So she ends up with one more attack than the PHB grants, she gains the 2nd extra attack earlier, and she never suffers a penalty to attack when doing this. It'll also come into play later on in the progression.)

Wholeness of Body (Ex): Monks can will themselves unharmed. Starting at level 3, a monk may enter a meditative state a number of times each day equal to her Wisdom modifier. This meditative state lasts a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom modifier. While in this meditative state, she gains fast healing 3.

(The old wholeness of body was like having someone spit on your face. 2 hp per level? That's worth nothing. This allows for a substantial portion, or even all, of her hit point pool each day. In fact, the Wis/Dex focused monk will likely be able to heal more than her maximum hit points each day.)

Still Mind (Ex): Starting at level 4, monks gain a +2 bonus to saves against spells from the enchantment school.

Crouching Tiger (Ex):Giant Kata (Ex): Starting at level 5, when the monk makes an opposed check for Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, or Trip, she counts as one size category larger than her normal size.

(Yeah, yeah... I hate the name too. Anyway, this makes up for some of the BAB loss when dealing with these four combat tricks. It also makes up for losing three bonus feat choices (Imp Grapple, Imp Disarm, Imp Trip), while adding a fourth trick.)

Ki Strike (magic)(Ex):Springing Strike(Ex): Starting at level 6, when making a single attack, the monk may move both before and after the attack. This attack deals her normal unarmed strike damage, plus an additional 1d6/2 levels. When using Springing Strike she does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity.

(Just a little reinforcement of the mobile guy that skirmishes and attacks the baddies in the back.)

Mettle (Ex): Gain Mettle at 7th level. Yeah.

(Added to the list of items that increase resistances.)

Ki Strike (lawful)(Ex):Purity of Body (Ex): Monks of 8th level and higher are immune to all diseases.

(Yes, all diseases. A monk can lick a mummy if she were so inclined and not be afraid of catching... something).

Snap Kick (Ex): Starting at level 9, once each round when the monk hits with an unarmed strike she may also immediately make a snap kick attack. This attack uses her highest base attack bonus and deals 2d6 + (1.5xStr) damage. She may choose what hit to use it on and is not forced to use it on her first hit.

(Just stacking up more attacks.)

Ki Strike (adamantine)(Ex):Pure Blood (Ex): Monks of 10th level and higher are immune to poisons.

(More resistances/immunities being stacked up.)

Improved Evasion (Ex): Monks gain improved evasion at 11th level.

(More resistances/immunities being stacked up.)

Freedom of Movement (Ex): At 11th level, as a move action, a monk may grant herself Freedom of Movement with a duration of one round. Each day she may use this a number of times equal to all the stars in the heavens.

(I didn't want to make it a static bonus, but felt it should be something a well trained monk could will herself into.)

Quivering Palm (Ex):Dragon Kata (Ex): Starting at level 13, when the monk makes an opposed check for Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple or Trip, she counts as two size categories larger than her normal size.

(Another terrible name.)

Font of Life (Ex): Starting at 14th level, the monk is immune to energy drain and ability damage.

(Hey, look, more immunities.)

Lotus Petal Blizzard (Ex): Starting at level 15, the monk may move her full movement and make an attack against a foe for each 5 ft. square she moves. She may make multiple attacks against a single foe. She may not reenter a space she just left. When using this she may not make more attacks than she is normally allowed. When using Lotus Petal Blizzard she does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity for her movement.

(So now instead of skirting the main battle, she can run through it, dishing out a little punishment before closing in on the "squishies".

Ki Strike (any)(Ex):Timeless Body (Ex): Starting at level 17 a monk no longer ages. She still gains bonuses from reaching age categories, but no longer accumulates aging penalties.

Tongues (Ex): At 17th level, the monk can speak with any intelligent creature.

(I don't really care for either of these, but just couldn't leave a level blank.)

Hidden Dragon (Ex): Once per encounter, an 18th level monks unarmed strikes occur with blazing speed. She doubles the number of attacks she makes for one round.

(Another ability to increase the dramatic number of attacks a monk attains simply through class levels.)

Empty Body (Ex): At 19th level, the monk may become ethereal a number of rounds each day equal to her level. These do not need to be consecutive rounds. While using Empty Body the monk may affect the material plane as if she were not ethereal, though her attacks still count as touch attacks.

(Thanks to Prime32 for level appropriate input!)

Perfect Self (Ex): At 20th level a monk transcends mortal limitations. Well, more so than she already has. She becomes an outsider rather than her normal creature type for the purposes of spells and magical effects. She gains Damage Reduction 10/-. Unlike other outsiders, she can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

(Essentially the same, except it becomes DR 10/-. DR 10/magic at 20th level is pointless.)
[/spoiler]

I pretty much hate monks too, but this was a fun little exercise. I don't really buy the argument that 5th wheel classes should be ignored. Just because the design was 4 PC centric doesn't mean the designer's never intended or never knew group compositions would be wildly divergent from the 4 PC "norm". I think the monk simply suffers from the designers either having no real idea how the game might be played at higher than average optimization levels, or they simply received so much input on the Monk (both from 1e and from ported/homebrewed 2e monks) that they didn't fully appreciate how underwhelming it is as a class.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 12:58:02 AM by Otto the Bugbear »

Prime32

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Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #141 on: April 05, 2011, 06:43:19 AM »
Empty Body (Ex): At 19th level, the monk may become ethereal a number of rounds each day equal to her level. These do not need to be consecutive rounds.

(I'm really not sold on this. I'd remove it if I could come up with something neat and worthy of 19th level.
I'd suggest letting the monk affect the Material Plane as if he were not ethereal, and resolve his attacks as touch attacks. That seems Musou Tensei enough.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #142 on: April 06, 2011, 01:04:54 AM »
I like it!

bkdubs123

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Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #143 on: April 18, 2011, 03:52:35 AM »
@Otto: I have read your thoughts on these and I plan to address them I just haven't had any time lately.

Anyway, minor edits were made to a few spells on the Wizard's spell list, and a small but telling edit was made to the Paladin's Divine Assault feature. The Paladin should be much more reasonable now. The Rogue still needs to be tweaked and the Barbarian still needs to be completed and tweaked.

Otto the Bugbear

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Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #144 on: April 20, 2011, 12:38:47 AM »
No sweat. It's not like I'm entitled or anything. I had more criticisms lined up for the alteration of spell levels, but basically held off because I can imagine the argument. While the argument may hold water for certain discussions, changing those big area spells to lower level is certainly not part of the designer's intent. I also held off because my stance is hardly relevant. Anyone that disagrees with the spell level change but wants to use these classes in a campaign can easily switch a few spell levels back around. In the end I figured it best to leave it alone because it would just be a muddy tangent that doesn't help the class design aspect.

-=-=-=-=

Also, edited the Monk to something like what Prime suggested.

Carnap

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Re: Effective Classes Following the Designers' Intent
« Reply #145 on: June 21, 2011, 03:54:06 PM »
A little bit of necromancy and maybe you would finish this brilliant project :)