Author Topic: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.  (Read 19955 times)

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Garryl

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2011, 04:30:26 PM »
Extended Charge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a Warforged juggernaut gains +5 to its speed when making a charge.

I'm not sure about how this part works. Am I correct in my understanding that you are saying that the +5 foot movement speed on charging applies after each charge attempt, thus providing you additional movement to extend your bounce? If so, I have a few issues, assuming that this is a verbatim quote of the ability rather than a quick summary.

1) As a bonus, would the movement speed bonus not stack with itself, thus only granting a single +5 foot boost, regardless of how many charges you make?
2) The wording indicates that the movement speed bonus only applies while making a charge. However, your movement to regain altitude is outside of a charge. Would that not make you lose the additional movement speed before you would be able to use it?
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Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2011, 04:17:34 AM »
Extended Charge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a Warforged juggernaut gains +5 to its speed when making a charge.
I'm not sure about how this part works. Am I correct in my understanding that you are saying that the +5 foot movement speed on charging applies after each charge attempt, thus providing you additional movement to extend your bounce? If so, I have a few issues, assuming that this is a verbatim quote of the ability rather than a quick summary.

1) As a bonus, would the movement speed bonus not stack with itself, thus only granting a single +5 foot boost, regardless of how many charges you make?
2) The wording indicates that the movement speed bonus only applies while making a charge. However, your movement to regain altitude is outside of a charge. Would that not make you lose the additional movement speed before you would be able to use it?
1. It's an untyped bonus, and those stack with one another.
2. I don't know. Either way, you can use the 5 for your charge. Heck, it could be your entire charge. RAW, however, it just adds 5 to your speed when you charge, not while you charge.

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2011, 06:32:19 AM »
1. It's an untyped bonus, and those stack with one another.
Cool!  The caster level bonus from an orange ioun stone is untyped.  I'll buy twenty of them and Blasphemy the entire campaign world into submission.

(Seriously, though, it's the same effect.  It overlaps with itself.)

Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2011, 10:49:51 AM »
The problem with that lies not only in RAW, but in RAI. Imagine if the ability only worked on one charge. Great, you can now never have another extended charge, because you already got the benefit.

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2011, 03:45:25 PM »
Okay, I've imagined it, and that's awful.

But that's not the way it's written.  It says "when you charge", so when you charge, you get +5 to your speed.

Granted, the ability doesn't say the bonus goes away when you stop charging, so I guess Warforged Juggernauts just get faster and faster as they adventure.

Bauglir

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2011, 12:22:51 AM »
Depends on how you parse "when". We have reached a very silly place, and I don't object.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Garryl

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2011, 12:27:06 AM »
Extended Charge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a Warforged juggernaut gains +5 to its speed when making a charge.
I'm not sure about how this part works. Am I correct in my understanding that you are saying that the +5 foot movement speed on charging applies after each charge attempt, thus providing you additional movement to extend your bounce? If so, I have a few issues, assuming that this is a verbatim quote of the ability rather than a quick summary.

1) As a bonus, would the movement speed bonus not stack with itself, thus only granting a single +5 foot boost, regardless of how many charges you make?
2) The wording indicates that the movement speed bonus only applies while making a charge. However, your movement to regain altitude is outside of a charge. Would that not make you lose the additional movement speed before you would be able to use it?
1. It's an untyped bonus, and those stack with one another.
2. I don't know. Either way, you can use the 5 for your charge. Heck, it could be your entire charge. RAW, however, it just adds 5 to your speed when you charge, not while you charge.

Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifiers
Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Multiple instances of the +5 foot bonus are coming from the same source (the Extended Charge ability), so unless they are circumstance bonuses, they don't stack with each other.
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2011, 01:00:18 AM »
Multiple instances of the +5 foot bonus are coming from the same source (the Extended Charge ability), so unless they are circumstance bonuses, they don't stack with each other.
They wouldn't stack even then, because they arise from the same circumstances (PHB glossary on "circumstance bonus").

nijineko

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2011, 03:07:15 AM »
but if this build is executing multiple charges in a round, would not each separate charge get the separate bonus? just because the situations are identical, the bonus is only applying to one charge at a time... just lots of them.
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CrimsonDeath

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2011, 03:23:51 AM »
The bonus doesn't apply to the charge.  It applies to your speed.  The charge is just the event that causes the bonus to apply.  (For that matter, I don't think there's a way to apply a bonus to a charge.  By itself, it doesn't have any parameters to improve or penalize.)

Which goes back to the question of what happens when you stop charging.  Just how long do you keep the bonus?  The ability says "when making a charge", and it was probably written under the assumption that once you finished your charge, you were done moving for the round.  When you're flying up 5' for your next fall, you're not charging right then.  You're just moving.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 03:07:55 AM by CrimsonDeath »

nijineko

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2011, 03:01:49 AM »
true. and a good point about application. if the build works as intended, then it would seem that you are getting a bonus to your speed for one part of your movement, then not for another part, then again for yet another part. since the round is the basic unit of time in d&d, and not segments, i can see it counting as the multiple instances within the same round, and thus only applying for the first charge in a given round.
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Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2011, 04:10:23 PM »
I think you guys are missing the point here.

Quote from: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifiers
Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.
[.quote]
Not only is the bonus untyped, I'm going by RAW here. That's why it is in that forum. We have talked extensively about this in the old thread, and that's why it went to the TO board. It is not a matter of whether or not it works anymore, because no sane DM would allow this. It is a possible interpretation, however.

nijineko

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2011, 02:53:54 AM »
snarf.

*chuckles*

so untyped, but what about, "or come from the same source" part?

which may mean i missed another point, if so sorry.
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Barbarossa

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2011, 11:02:39 AM »
Each charge is a separate charge.

Source #1 - Charge #1
Source #2 - Charge #2

And so forth.

Bauglir

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2011, 12:25:49 PM »
Isn't the source of the bonus the ability, not the thing that triggers it? The source of an initiative bonus is your Eager Warning weapon, not the enemy making you roll.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2011, 05:23:37 PM »
Each charge is a separate charge.

Source #1 - Charge #1
Source #2 - Charge #2

And so forth.
That's a bit like saying you cast Ray of Enfeeblement twice, and the source of one penalty is the first spell slot while the source of the other penalty is the second spell slot.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2011, 03:14:41 AM »
Each charge is a separate charge.

Source #1 - Charge #1
Source #2 - Charge #2

And so forth.
Under that logic, what conditions would "same source" apply to?
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Kethrian

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2011, 03:49:51 AM »
but if this build is executing multiple charges in a round, would not each separate charge get the separate bonus? just because the situations are identical, the bonus is only applying to one charge at a time... just lots of them.

If the bonus did apply to the charge, would that not merely mean that you have to move that much farther before you can initiate the charge?  A charge normally requires 10' of movement, or  5' for Battle Jump.  So, if the +5' bonus applied to the charge, Battle Jump would suddenly need 10' of movement to be able to charge, or 15' for a normal charge.  Remember, the only part of a charge that lists distance on a charge is how far you must first travel.  Therefore, the bonus must strictly apply to the speed, not the charge.

If this bonus vanishes after you have charged, so that you may apply it again to a second charge, then you are still stuck with your speed +5' as the maximum you can move in the round.  Once you have moved that much, there is no more available to get you away from your opponent to try another charge, to regain the +5' bonus and thereby get 5' again after you've hit your limit.

If the bonus does not vanish, then it cannot stack with itself, and you are limited to your speed +5' for the round, anyway.

nijineko

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Re: Getting the drop on people... dozens of times.
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2011, 08:14:06 PM »
iirc, i don't think i believed in the logic that they were applying in the first place. i was playing opposite advocate in their favor in order to comprehend their view, and as my view wasn't accepted i didn't want to perpetuate the argument/debate. besides, if i can comprehend it, i might be convinced one way or another. but, at this remove i don't recall the exact application and i'm not recalling the whole limit thing either. ^^ plus too lazy to review right now. =p i'll take your word for it for now.
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