Author Topic: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?  (Read 3084 times)

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Anarchy_Kanya

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What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« on: February 19, 2011, 09:32:21 PM »
This character needs her maneuvers.
Swordsage is taken on 5th level. Warblade from 6th to 20th.
What maneuvers should I take? Something to synergize with her capabilities, or maybe to lessen her weaknesses?
(Note: Swordsage needs at least 1 Shadow Hand stance and maneuver for the Shadow Blade feat.)
(Note 2: Don't worry about spellcasters. She's for an arena battle.)
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Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
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skydragonknight

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2011, 09:53:25 PM »
Sudden Leap. You don't have Pounce, so positioning will be important.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

sir_argenon

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2011, 09:54:53 PM »
also. try to fit in knowledge devotion.  with an int that high, it cant hurt.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2011, 10:03:13 PM »
Quote
Sudden Leap. You don't have Pounce, so positioning will be important.
There is a maneuver that gives pounce, if my memory serves right.
Quote
also. try to fit in knowledge devotion.  with an int that high, it cant hurt.
And where? I don't think that there is place for it.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

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Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
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Azoriel

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2011, 11:17:57 PM »
Quote
Sudden Leap. You don't have Pounce, so positioning will be important.
There is a maneuver that gives pounce, if my memory serves right.

Pouncing Charge, a 5th level tiger claw maneuver.  (I find this maneuver something of a waste, however - pouncing is good, but combining pounce with one of those delicious white raven charging maneuvers is even better.)

Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose (both tiger claw boosts) are great for increasing volume of attacks.  Blood in the Water (tiger claw stance) is good for two-weapon fighting with frequent-crit weapons.  I guess the overall message here is that tiger claw school is your friend (see caveat regarding strikes below).

Your ability to utilize strikes in general will be somewhat limited, since most of them are one-hit standard actions (i.e. no full attack action).  Ergo, focus more on boosts and counters.  The desert wind fire-based boosts get better as your attacks per round increase (extra damage per attack), and defensive stuff like Wall of Blades and Diamond Defense is as useful to you as it is to anyone else.  Also, don't discount general purpose maneuvers, like Iron Heart Surge (great for killing antimagic fields) and White Raven Tactics (useful if you're working in a team).

Single hit strikes can still be useful, but take those sparingly.  If you take any, make sure they have some clear purpose beyond just doing raw damage, like Douse the Flames (good if Covering Strike is missing for whatever reason) and White Raven Hammer.

As your 9th level maneuver, you'll probably want Time Stands Still, allowing you to take two full attacks as a full round action - however, this means you'll have needed to take a bunch of diamond mind maneuvers before hand.

Quote
also. try to fit in knowledge devotion.  with an int that high, it cant hurt.
And where? I don't think that there is place for it.

I'm not sure why you're taking combat expertise - even with a defensive character, I've never been too fond of that feat, myself.  I'd say knowledge devotion is easily worth more, especially on a character with multiple attacks, but that's just what I think; the choice is yours.

I'd be pouring through the monk variants to get something else in the place of stunning fist, as well (unless that serves some special purpose I've failed to note).

Edit: grammar
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 11:20:13 PM by Azoriel »

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 12:06:57 AM »
Okay. I changed the feats a little. Now I have Knowledge Devotion. It was there because of the gestalt version in with I'm using Dervish. In this version it is not needed.
Unfortunetly Shadow Blade needs a Shadow Hand stance to be active in order to grant me Dex to dmg. So no Tiger Claw stances will be used. :nonono
The build is for an arena battle style game with no casters but feel free to suggest things for fights with enemy spellcasters, it will always be useful for other types of games.
Also - no Unearthed Arcana. All official books (including Dragon and Dungeon Magazines) but prereps of every feat or prc or any other stuff must be met (there are no adaptations or compromises, only fluff does not matter).
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 12:56:43 AM by Anarchy_Kanya »
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

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You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2011, 12:45:50 AM »
Swordsage Maneuvers (IL 10; Known 6, Readied* 4, Stances 1)
Stances - Child of Shadow (shadow)
Maneuvers - Shadow Blade Technique (shadow), Moment of Perfect Mind (diamond), Saphire Nightmare Blade (diamond), Sudden Leap (tiger), Wolf Fang Strike (tiger), Burning Blade (desert)

Warblade Maneuvers (IL 17; Known 11, Readied* 6, Stances 3)

Stances - Blood In the Water (tiger), Pearl of Black Doubt (diamond), Hearing the Air (diamond)
Maneuvers - Emerald Razor (diamond), Quicksilver Motion (diamond), Sudden Leap (tiger), Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (tiger), Iron Heart Surge (iron), Greater Insightful Strike (diamond), Pouncing Charge (tiger), Dancing Mongoose (tiger), Iron Heart Endurance (iron), Finishing Move (iron), Time Stand Still (diamond)

What do you think? Swordsage taken on 2nd level, Warblade from 6th.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
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Azoriel

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2011, 09:20:29 AM »
What do you think? Swordsage taken on 2nd level, Warblade from 6th.

Mighty Throw would be a handy utility power for your swordsage level, as would Counter Charge (both setting sun).  The former lets you move an opponent via your dex score, the latter negates charges, which is golden if you ever face any charger builds.

I'd highly recommend getting Raging Mongoose if at all possible, and, as far as I can tell, you only have one 8th level maneuver.  (Even-level maneuver trade-outs at 4th level and beyond are your friend.)

All in all, you'll only be able to prepare so many maneuvers between fights, and you won't have the time to swap them out in middle of combat, so further additions beyond that would probably be superfluous.  Moment of Alacrity is awesome if you want that +20 boost to initiative (though you'll only need it once per fight, and I suppose you have better things to do with your readied powers).  Finishing Move and Iron Heart Endurance I consider to be weaker maneuvers, but that begs the question what else there is to take in their place.  You might try to work in some Stone Dragon maneuvers for added utility (like Elder Mountain Hammer, to get around hardness, and Bonesplitting Strike, to do con damage), but that would probably be a bigger headache than it's worth, as the gain would be fairly minimal.  (You're not going to need to smash your way through your own manacles after a capture scenario for an arena fight, and you can finish off most regenerating monsters with the burning blade boost.)

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2011, 11:28:00 AM »
Quote
Mighty Throw would be a handy utility power for your swordsage level, as would Counter Charge (both setting sun).  The former lets you move an opponent via your dex score, the latter negates charges, which is golden if you ever face any charger builds.
Mighty Throw would be counterproductive because my goal is to be as close to the enemy as possible. :D
Counter Charge would be useful but... I need those Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw maneuvers to meet the requirements of the higher level maneuvers. :( Maybe I could swap Saphire Nightmare Blade for Counter Charge... Okay, I will do it. I hope it wont be illegal. :)
Quote
I'd highly recommend getting Raging Mongoose if at all possible, and, as far as I can tell, you only have one 8th level maneuver.  (Even-level maneuver trade-outs at 4th level and beyond are your friend.)
I'm afraid that it's not possible, although in the gestalt version (which I made just in case :D) I have 2 feats free, so at least there I can take Martial Study at 20th level and take Raging Mongoose. :)
Quote
All in all, you'll only be able to prepare so many maneuvers between fights, and you won't have the time to swap them out in middle of combat, so further additions beyond that would probably be superfluous.
Adaptive Style takes care of that.
Quote
Moment of Alacrity is awesome if you want that +20 boost to initiative (though you'll only need it once per fight, and I suppose you have better things to do with your readied powers).
Do I understand it correctly? I initiate Moment of Alacrity as swift action on my turn, then make other actions and on the next turn I go first (assuming that the +20 makes my initiative higher then that of my enemy)? I already have Init +17. Is that good or mediocre?
Quote
Finishing Move and Iron Heart Endurance I consider to be weaker maneuvers, but that begs the question what else there is to take in their place.
About Finishing Move I can agree, I've taken it because I didn't have a better option.
Iron Heart Endurance - lets put it this way - that character is no "tank", so it's essential to not be hit. BUT at the same time I WANT to be hit :P (Robilar's Gambit - it will go wrong sooner or later). IF I get hit, Iron Heart Endurance will be very useful.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
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Azoriel

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2011, 05:39:01 AM »
Iron Heart Endurance - lets put it this way - that character is no "tank", so it's essential to not be hit. BUT at the same time I WANT to be hit :P (Robilar's Gambit - it will go wrong sooner or later). IF I get hit, Iron Heart Endurance will be very useful.

Not quite as useful as you might imagine - if you read the description of the power, you can only use it if you are below half your total HP.  In addition to that, it's also a swift action.  This means that, in order to use it, you need to:

(1) Not be using any other boosts or counters that round and
(2) Not be recharging your maneuvers (takes a swift action, and also can't use any maneuvers in the round you do it).

How often is this worth doing instead of Raging Mongoose (+4 attacks) or recharging Time Stands Still between rounds?  The ability to self-heal is nice, but Iron Heart Endurance is very limited in its scope.  Perhaps you'll find use for this power, but 40 points of healing when you're below half in middle of a fight isn't going to gain you that much.  (I might consider it for a standard campaign, in a situation where time doesn't matter, like my guy just got the tar beaten out of him and he's slowly getting back to half hp while en route to his next stop.  That's assuming he doesn't find a snake or something along the way to stomp on for Strike of Righteous Vitality.)  But, hey, maybe those 40 hp might save you.  I dunno.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 05:40:34 AM by Azoriel »

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 11:41:09 AM »
But there's nothing better to take. :(
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
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skydragonknight

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 12:15:20 PM »
So wait...wait...Wait...WAIT a second here. You're an Elf with 15 levels of Warblade and not enough Good Maneuvers...

SOME of those Warblade levels should be Eternal Blade levels.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 12:18:46 PM »
Warblades 15th level class feature is esential to my combat tactic.
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
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Anarchy_Kanya

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Re: What maneuvers to choose for a TWF multi-attacker?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 05:34:13 PM »
Okay. I changed it a little, based on your suggestions.

Swordsage Maneuvers (IL 10; Known 6, Readied* 4, Stances 1)
Stances - Child of Shadow (shadow)
Maneuvers - Shadow Blade Technique (shadow), Moment of Perfect Mind (diamond), Counter Charge (setting), Sudden Leap (tiger), Wolf Fang Strike (tiger), Burning Blade (desert)

Warblade Maneuvers (IL 17; Known 11, Readied* 6, Stances 3)
Stances - Blood In the Water (tiger), Pearl of Black Doubt (diamond), Hearing the Air (diamond)
Maneuvers - Emerald Razor (diamond), Quicksilver Motion (diamond), Sudden Leap (tiger), Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (tiger), Iron Heart Surge (iron), Moment of Alacrity (diamond), Pouncing Charge (tiger), Dancing Mongoose (tiger), Iron Heart Endurance (iron), Avalanche of Blades (diamond), Time Stands Still (diamond)

And here's the gestalt version. It incorporates all that is in non-gestalt but the feats are diffrent (there's more of them thanks to Fighter 20 :P)
Fly Away With Me!
We Are Angels! Anarchy!
[spoiler]
Once my 12 level VoP exalted Monk beat a Horned Devil. ALONE! The only dmg the devil could do to me was from one spell-like that he menaged to shoot out before he droped. :D
wow... you are the epitome of trolling...

Non complete list of people here that are not fuckwits: bearsarebrown, BeholderSlayer, Dictum Mortum, Ithamar, Kajhera, RelentlessImp, SeekingKnight, Shiki, Solo.
You didn't include yourself. Does that mean you're a fuckwit? ???

Hi Welcome
Then I can assume the answer to the question is "Yes".
[/spoiler]
Making Fighters special - lil project by me.