Author Topic: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?  (Read 3135 times)

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Tequila Sunrise

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Just what the title says. If a PC archer, such as a ranger, could use basic 1-for-1 PA with his bow, would it be better than manyshotting?

ninjarabbit

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2011, 08:34:55 PM »
Not really

Throwers can power attack with the brutal throw and power throw feats.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2011, 09:31:36 PM »
If a PC archer, such as a ranger, could use basic 1-for-1 PA with his bow,
You mean with Hank's Energy Bow?
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Tequila Sunrise

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2011, 09:59:24 PM »
If a PC archer, such as a ranger, could use basic 1-for-1 PA with his bow,
You mean with Hank's Energy Bow?
Yeah, like that.

I'm hoping some math-lover can give me a rough dpr comparison.

Kajhera

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2011, 10:37:15 PM »
Str 14, Dex 18 Ranger 6
BAB +6, Dex +4
+1 composite +2 longbow

Power Attack for 6: +5 attack/+0 attack, 1d8+9 damage (average 13.5 on each shot)

Rapid Shot: +8 attack/+8 attack/+3 attack, 1d8+3 damage (average 7.5 on each shot)

Manyshot: +6 attack for 2 arrows, 1d8+3 damage, precision damage applies only once

Power Attack for 4, for an even comparison: +6 attack / +1 attack, 1d8+8 damage (average 12.5 on each shot)

If the Manyshot hits, you've got 15 damage on average, not accounting for crit skew. If only the first Power Attack hits, it compares at 12.5 damage.

I'm really lazy, so a quick search brings me only Pathfinder monster guideline thingies that say average AC at CR 6 should be 19. Anyone got a more relevant source?

Hmm... I'll go through the SRD, calculate average and standard deviation and other relevant things.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 10:42:01 PM by Kajhera »

skydragonknight

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2011, 10:45:51 PM »
As a standard action, Manyshot would be superior if you have so much as a single flaming/frost/shock property, or a composite bow.

As a full-round, we'll assume Rapid Shot:

Two arrows:
Manyshot:  -4
Rapidshot + PA: -2 + -2 = Manyshot's to-hit, but +4 damage from the arrows.

Three arrows:
Manyshot: -6
Rapidshot + PA at -2: 2 attacks at -4 to hit, 1 at -9 to hit. Overall +1 to hit and +6 damage over three attacks.

Four arrows:
Manyshot: -8
Rapidshot + PA at -2: 2 attacks at -4 to hit, 1 at -9 to hit, 1 at -14 to hit. Overall +1 to hit and +8 damage over four attacks.

Of course, if their AC is decent then you'd be better off just using Rapidshot by itself...
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Kajhera

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2011, 11:01:42 PM »
I'll be paying attention to level 6, the level we get Manyshot as a ranger.

The highest AC at CR 6 is 29, while the lowest AC is 14. Median AC is 18. First quartile is 17. Third quartile is 20. Average AC is 18.8. Most often occurring ACs are 20 and 18. The standard deviation is 3.1.

Will o' wisp appears to be an outlier and should probably be disregarded for general calculations. Would give us an adjusted mean of 18.4 and I'm not bothering with any other effects.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 11:25:31 PM by Kajhera »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2011, 09:32:28 AM »
Don't use Pathfailure stats as a comparison. Aside from being well, Pathfailure stats, they are also inaccurate, even to themselves. They just wrote random stuff there really, without even referencing their own books.

Anyways, to hit for ranged is the easiest to get so if you could PA with a bow, it's free damage. I'd say better than Manyshot.
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Kajhera

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2011, 10:01:44 AM »
Don't use Pathfailure stats as a comparison. Aside from being well, Pathfailure stats, they are also inaccurate, even to themselves. They just wrote random stuff there really, without even referencing their own books.

Anyways, to hit for ranged is the easiest to get so if you could PA with a bow, it's free damage. I'd say better than Manyshot.

Yea, they say average AC of 19 when evidently the median is 18 and much more useful.  :p I realized this and went about the wearying process of calculating by hand. (Admittedly average of 18.8 is fairly close to 19, but it's also skewed by the wisp.)

Once you start tacking in easy things adding to to-hit... Power Attack will be better as a full attack than manyshot ... but I think it only becomes better as a single shot, damage-wise, once you're sacrificing 7 points to your damage.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2011, 11:27:38 AM »
The higher you go the more inaccurate it is. For example they insist 20 is AC 35, when every single thing there has 39 to mid 40s without doing anything, and 50s in actual play.

The Optimization by the Numbers thread here is more accurate, but still does not take into account any buffs the creature has, even if it's something like At Will Unholy Aura, which might as well just be added to the damn statblock.
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Kajhera

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2011, 11:31:45 AM »
Addendum: If the critter has DR, Power Shot will jump up dramatically in relative effectiveness.

Tequila Sunrise

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2011, 12:27:46 PM »
So it looks like PA and manyshot are roughly equal, barring certain conditions. If the archer has damage bonuses, from say favored enemy or an elemental bow, manyshot becomes better. But if the archer can stack on a lot of attack bonuses, or if the target has DR, PA becomes better.

If anyone wants to know, there's context for my little scenario: As we all know, high level 3.5 more or less expects everyone to be able to trade attack for damage. Hence the relatively low ACs and the obscene number of HPs. Rather than charge a feat tax to be able to do that, I'd rather give everyone basic PA that can be used with any attack.

skydragonknight

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2011, 01:14:05 PM »
Of course, you could always Quicken True Strike and use both for optimal effect.

Other factors: Manyshot has a mobility advantage, even if it generally creates less damage than a full attack. However, it has a range disadvantage. Flyby attack helps this greatly.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: [3.5] If My Archer Could Power Attack, Would it be Better than Manyshot?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2011, 04:03:51 PM »
So it looks like PA and manyshot are roughly equal, barring certain conditions. If the archer has damage bonuses, from say favored enemy or an elemental bow, manyshot becomes better. But if the archer can stack on a lot of attack bonuses, or if the target has DR, PA becomes better.

If anyone wants to know, there's context for my little scenario: As we all know, high level 3.5 more or less expects everyone to be able to trade attack for damage. Hence the relatively low ACs and the obscene number of HPs. Rather than charge a feat tax to be able to do that, I'd rather give everyone basic PA that can be used with any attack.

Just giving everyone PA, and letting it work with all attacks both removes a feat tax, and makes archers fail less. Won't break anything. Also makes throwers remotely worth a damn. Though the throwers in question never used it, it was there.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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ksbsnowowl

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Just be aware of what can be accomplished with ranged power attacks.  Hunter's Mercy gives a distinct advantage to archers over other characters, as they can basically decide when they are going to crit.

Check out the archer thread linked in my sig. (there was a 3.0 PrC that gave archers the ability to power attack)
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